3rd Infantry type?

[Ender_101]

Wow those are some freaking angry science babies.

Looking forward to hearing about the other models.

 

[Maverick_]

Well, my fears that this would be too simple of a game are now officially over. The teknes babies prove that. Can't wait to see the rest of the unit cards.

 

[Swan]

I m just hoping that the Masterminds Inspire is a typo, or we have to come up with a way of tracking the status of figures each turn.

"Inspire: This models melle attacks gain (+1) Rate and Backstab against enemies that begin the turn engaged with another friendly model."

I underlined turn. I think that activation would be easier, unless we want to mark each enemy that begins each turn engaged.

 

[feketelovag]

Looking at all the raves they are getting, I'm going to guess that I'm the only one who sees the Addanii as a tad bit unbalanced... Im not even going to mention them against rank 1 infantry since those will either die to the the Addanii's regular attack or to their own attacks while attempting (and failing) to kill them. Though I guess this isn't a huge thing seeing as rank 2 infantry usually kill rank 1 fairly easily enough so lets stack them up against rank 2 infantry instead. Odds of another rank 2 inf killing the Addanii increase compared to a rank 1 infantry giving it a go but even here your odds aren't overly great since you will have to roll an overpower plus a strike to kill them with 2 dice. Worst case scenario you give them 2 wounds meaning you get 2 dice back at you which might kill you seeing as other rank 2 inf so far are only 2 wounds. This is of course without even having the Addanii even activating to use their own attack or doing anything other than just sitting there. So basically with abilities like this you don't even need to bother about alpha strikes or tactics in general. Just push them up the board and either they hit something or they get hit, survive and then kill the person with Lash Out. This of course isn't even getting consider with their leader inspire or training that just ups them even more... but I guess its just me seeing them as a little bit OP...

 

[Xavarir]

I m just hoping that the Masterminds Inspire is a typo, or we have to come up with a way of tracking the status of figures each turn.

"Inspire: This models melle attacks gain (+1) Rate and Backstab against enemies that begin the turn engaged with another friendly model."

I underlined turn. I think that activation would be easier, unless we want to mark each enemy that begins each turn engaged.

It should just read

"......and Backstab against enemies that are currently engaged with another friendly model."

in my opinion. I have no idea why the "begin their turn engaged" is there. If you are engaged with another friendly unit you get stabbed in the back!

 

[Swan]

Looking at all the raves they are getting, I'm going to guess that I'm the only one who sees the Addanii as a tad bit unbalanced... Im not even going to mention them against rank 1 infantry since those will either die to the the Addanii's regular attack or to their own attacks while attempting (and failing) to kill them. Though I guess this isn't a huge thing seeing as rank 2 infantry usually kill rank 1 fairly easily enough so lets stack them up against rank 2 infantry instead. Odds of another rank 2 inf killing the Addanii increase compared to a rank 1 infantry giving it a go but even here your odds aren't overly great since you will have to roll an overpower plus a strike to kill them with 2 dice. Worst case scenario you give them 2 wounds meaning you get 2 dice back at you which might kill you seeing as other rank 2 inf so far are only 2 wounds. This is of course without even having the Addanii even activating to use their own attack or doing anything other than just sitting there. So basically with abilities like this you don't even need to bother about alpha strikes or tactics in general. Just push them up the board and either they hit something or they get hit, survive and then kill the person with Lash Out. This of course isn't even getting consider with their leader inspire or training that just ups them even more... but I guess its just me seeing them as a little bit OP...

Well, its not as bleak as you seem to make it out. Compared to the other 2 Rank 2 infantry that we know of:

Brood are hit 50% of the time, have a single attack die, 3 wounds and their only special ability to draw attacks, and then if they survive counter these

Wrath Are hit 40% of the time, have 2 attack dace, 2 wounds, a magic attack, enlightenment to give them offensive and defensive abilities, and a built in defensive ability that makes them hit only 30% of the time


Skorza are hit 40% of the time, have 2 attack dice, 2 wounds, a follow up attack, and their attack can bypass a single block on any defense chart (though this has no affect against the Brood). Added to this they have some very handy movement tricks.

All of this doesn't include all of the extra crazy things that their rank 1 and 2 leaders bring to the party.

I would say, all in all, they seem pretty balanced against one another, but each accomplishes this balance in a different way:

Brood accomplishes it through defensive reaction
Skorza through getting where they need too and a straight offensive beat down
Wrath though sharing the pain and being able to take a hit (with additional benefits through enlightenment)

 

[CMON Michael Shinall]

I m just hoping that the Masterminds Inspire is a typo, or we have to come up with a way of tracking the status of figures each turn. "Inspire: This models melle attacks gain (+1) Rate and Backstab against enemies that begin the turn engaged with another friendly model."I underlined turn. I think that activation would be easier, unless we want to mark each enemy that begins each turn engaged.

I think you're confusing the terms "round" and "turn".A "turn" is one Individual Activatiin or one Combined Activation (a round is a series of turns).

 

[Swan]

I stand corrected

 

[feketelovag]

Well, its not as bleak as you seem to make it out. Compared to the other 2 Rank 2 infantry that we know of:

Brood are hit 50% of the time, have a single attack die, 3 wounds and their only special ability to draw attacks, and then if they survive counter these

Wrath Are hit 40% of the time, have 2 attack dace, 2 wounds, a magic attack, enlightenment to give them offensive and defensive abilities, and a built in defensive ability that makes them hit only 30% of the time


Skorza are hit 40% of the time, have 2 attack dice, 2 wounds, a follow up attack, and their attack can bypass a single block on any defense chart (though this has no affect against the Brood). Added to this they have some very handy movement tricks.

All of this doesn't include all of the extra crazy things that their rank 1 and 2 leaders bring to the party.

I would say, all in all, they seem pretty balanced against one another, but each accomplishes this balance in a different way:

Brood accomplishes it through defensive reaction
Skorza through getting where they need too and a straight offensive beat down
Wrath though sharing the pain and being able to take a hit (with additional benefits through enlightenment)

The to hit tables are nice and all but I think you are missing the point of the wounds and the odds of actually getting a kill with 2 dice. More on this later though...

First, all those abilities are nice but they are very opponent specific meaning that they will be completely useless against some targets while giving a small boost against others. Against the Brood for example the Wrath's magical attack is pointless, enlightenment revolves around an external factor which we aren't counting for the Brood so why count it for them? The ward ability is less likely given its rank 2 inf vs rank 2 inf and they aren't outnumbered but lets give them their ward when counting stuff just for kicks.

Skorza... your maneuverability goes out the window since the Brood can just sit there and take the charge. The follow-up attack is again hard to use since you actually need to kill which is pretty hard on 2 dice and then an extra dice will most likely just result in you getting wounded back making it easier for them to kill you in their own activation. Their Follow-Through has no effect against the brood as you mentioned yourself.

The Broods single Lash Out ability however universally effects everybody regardless if they have a block or parry or whatnot on their defensive chart. Plus their killing power is deceptively high.

So, lets just take a look at them going toe-to-toe with The Wrath...

What are the odds of a Wrath killing a Brood with their 2 dice? 7%... Odds of the Brood rolling a 10 on their single dice? 10%... hmmm they have higher odds of killing a rank 2 infantry with their single dice? Nice. Now lets factor in the portion of if they actual get hit twice and then do their own single dice attack. That means you would have thrown a total of 3 dice back at the attacker... counting their ward ability (just for fun) you'd have roughly 37% chance of killing the Wrath. Now this just increases without the ward ability or if you are facing the Skorza which have an even worse to hit chart.

So lets recap... if you get attacked first you not only have a 93% chance of surviving but you also have a higher chance of killing your attacker back outright without even activating. Or you get to attack first, have a slim chance of killing your opponent and then sit back and wait for your opponent to do the work for you with his own attacks.

Though, I guess that I'm the only one who finds this to be anything but "pretty balanced against one another".

 

[Swan]

The to hit tables are nice and all but I think you are missing the point of the wounds and the odds of actually getting a kill with 2 dice. More on this later though...

First, all those abilities are nice but they are very opponent specific meaning that they will be completely useless against some targets while giving a small boost against others. Against the Brood for example the Wrath's magical attack is pointless, enlightenment revolves around an external factor which we aren't counting for the Brood so why count it for them? The ward ability is less likely given its rank 2 inf vs rank 2 inf and they aren't outnumbered but lets give them their ward when counting stuff just for kicks.

Skorza... your maneuverability goes out the window since the Brood can just sit there and take the charge. The follow-up attack is again hard to use since you actually need to kill which is pretty hard on 2 dice and then an extra dice will most likely just result in you getting wounded back making it easier for them to kill you in their own activation. Their Follow-Through has no effect against the brood as you mentioned yourself.

The Broods single Lash Out ability however universally effects everybody regardless if they have a block or parry or whatnot on their defensive chart. Plus their killing power is deceptively high.

So, lets just take a look at them going toe-to-toe with The Wrath...

What are the odds of a Wrath killing a Brood with their 2 dice? 7%... Odds of the Brood rolling a 10 on their single dice? 10%... hmmm they have higher odds of killing a rank 2 infantry with their single dice? Nice. Now lets factor in the portion of if they actual get hit twice and then do their own single dice attack. That means you would have thrown a total of 3 dice back at the attacker... counting their ward ability (just for fun) you'd have roughly 37% chance of killing the Wrath. Now this just increases without the ward ability or if you are facing the Skorza which have an even worse to hit chart.

So lets recap... if you get attacked first you not only have a 93% chance of surviving but you also have a higher chance of killing your attacker back outright without even activating. Or you get to attack first, have a slim chance of killing your opponent and then sit back and wait for your opponent to do the work for you with his own attacks.

Though, I guess that I'm the only one who finds this to be anything but "pretty balanced against one another".

First,in regards to the Wrath, you cannot just ignore enlightenment, since it is a key factor in the Shael Han force. All of their pieces are balanced with this factor being involved. If you just ignore it, then all of the Shael Han forces are sub par versus everyone else. Since the Brood is not balanced with an external ability baked in we ignore any benefits from leaders. You also have to remember that the Shael Han enlightenment Auras are 6" Auras so it is likely that they will have multiple choices what aura to use when hit, and since they do not have to chose until AFTER the dice are rolled, enlightenment can and is brutal to face.

Number two, your math is off. Any two die attack will kill a full health Brood 9% of the time, while you are correct, a Brood single die attack has a 10% chance to kill a Skorza or a Wrath. This 10% difference does find balance though in the fact that Brood are 10% easier to hit then either Skorza or Wrath (and this is with ignoring enlightenment and Against all Odds).

Finally, Skorza movement abilities, and your premise that this just "goes out the window" is ludicrous, since the game does not solely revolve around the elimination of enemy models, but relies to a large extent on Motivations, and being able to accomplish them. With Skirmisher and Stalker you cannot pin these guys down, they can engage and disengage at will and can bring their force to bear where they can be most effective.

Finally, with an easier hit chart, only a reactive ability, and a lower will power, if they had fewer wounds they would rarely if ever see their reactive ability work - since it only works if they survive, while the other rank two troops will be able to use their abilities all the time, since they do not rely on an outside stimulus for them to kick in. So yes I stand by my statement that on paper these troops are "pretty balanced against one another".

Now a question for you, how many battles have you played on the table, and not just run stats on paper? I did not check your 37% number, but your 7% was based on Brood being hit on a 7 or better, they are hit on a 6 or better.

 

[feketelovag]

You are correct that my number is off and it is 9%... I accidentally used the Wrath's to hit chart to calculate the Brood's numbers as well in my rush seeing as I was in a rush in the morning though even with your numbers the Brood has better odds to outright kill their rank 2 counterparts. With just their SINGLE attack not even factoring in that this increases exponentially based on the number of wounds they take. Btw, the 37% should be correct if they have taken 2 wounds and use their own attack as well so just saying that they are 10% easier to hit is a huge skew of things. If you ignore the wounds or the resilience on a model then you are only looking at half the facts.

Fine, add enlightenment... it probably wont change much other than having an extra figure that gives the enlightenment in the equation...

Reason that I said the Skorza's movement shenanigans go out the window is because their follow-through only activates on a kill, meaning that they will be able to rely on it 9% of the time which is quite a small number if you ask me. Though you might be a bigger gambler than me and like to bet on 9% odds... I dont. As for their other movement shenanigans... well guess what speed the Brood is? That's right they are just as fast as the Skorza so even if you disengage for free the Brood can just play tag along and follow wherever you go.

Actually it would be fairly easy to nerf their ability without even touching their wounds so that they retain their survivability. All that would need to be done is change the wording on their ability so that it is not "every" hit but rather if they suffered damage in a combat action. Not to mention that I never even bothered to mention that with this ability you can throw the dice at models 2" away from you so could theoretically throw the dice at an enemy model that hasn't yet even attacked or used its attack dice yet to damage your Brood or others near them.

" since it only works if they survive, while the other rank two troops will be able to use their abilities all the time, since they do not rely on an outside stimulus for them to kick in."

You mean how the Skorza's ability relies on it to actually kill a model or how the Wrath's ability relies on another model and to be in that model's aura radiance? Your right, neither of these rank 2 infantry abilities rely on some outside factor


Well Ill just answer that question with a question of my own... What special effect would I get on comparing models/number crunching by playing down multiple games? When the two models meet on the battlefield 1vs1 then the numbers wont change. Max only the situations will change whereas there will be 2 Skorza attacking 1 Brood or 2 Brood attacking 1 Skorza but even in such situations the fact that on 2 dice you only have a 9% chance to kill a Brood remains the same. Btw, I find it funny that your reaction is always to ask if Ive played any games... as if that would change the odds of something from happening. Like if I say that getting tails on a coin flip is 50% you would just say... have you actually flipped a coin??? lol So I hope that you arent basing your answers on having played a handful of games since you really only get accurate data by playing 100+ games and even then you wont be playing the same situation over and over again because things change from game to game. Cold hard number crunching however will give you the same stats back every time. Just like in the other thread it was mentioned that the Legionnaires are the tankiest or at the very least match the tankiest rank 1 infantry in the game with the Diamond Wall and Healing Vapors stacking with each other. Even though the Hadross and their Deepmen were "supposed" to be billed as the tankiest. This is again just hard cold numbers... but feel free to play a couple hundred games to verify .

Enjoy your games. I'm done now.

 

[Xavarir]

I believe the question of "how many games have you actually played?" has more to do with the motivations being a huge factor, then your ability to crunch numbers. In a "real game", with motivations, what are the chances that the Addanii come face to face with the Wrath in a 1 on 1 situation. Probably low. Even if they do, this "1 on 1" will likely be influenced by a number of Insights/Auras/etc. The game isn't designed to be balanced around 1 on 1 combat so it is unfair to do comparisons like this. The Wrath in particular specialize in being the center of attention surrounded by enemy troops. If the Wrath end up in a 1 on 1 situation with the Skorza or Addanii it is probably a result of unit mismanagement or superior strategy.

After seeing the complete Addanii package, I am pleased with how they turned out. I was worried at first, by the tidbit spoilers, that they were just going to be another "you better not hit me, or I'll hit you back harder" unit with little to no options for gameplay variation. On top of that, the pictures being painted by the spoilers weren't exactly driven by the lore pieces released for the Addanii. While the Addanii Brood Warriors retain the reactive Teknes overlay, the Masterminds and Timo lean more towards the offensive side of things. The Insight and Training (let's be honest, if you're not taking the Ironward's training you're wrong ) abilities of both Addanii leaders offer considerable offensive boosts for the Brood. For me this is a refreshing change from the almost purely reactionary/defensive style of the Linesmen and Union Workers.

 

[Swan]

Well, lets start with this frightening 1% that you seem to be so concerned with that makes the Brood vastly over powered. Yes, they can be killed 9% of the time, but they have a 10% chance to kill their opponent. I know, that vicious 1% is a game changer, but again you forget that Lash Out only triggers if they survive, which means that that 10% chance to kill their opponent only activates 91% of the time (since they died the other 9%). This means that they only have a 9.1% chance of eliminating their opponent, so now we are only looking at them being over powered "head to head" 0.1% of the time. Does this make them so vastly over powered that they are broken?

You asked "What special effect would I get on comparing models/number crunching by playing down multiple games?". As an answer to my question about have you even put any models on the table pretty much answers no. The problem with what you are doing is that you are trying to balance things on a component level. Which while possible, the only way to do it is to make each of the components identical (which would give us the game of chess, or go, or Pente or Hive or any number of simple games in existence where both players have identical units/models/tokens). To add flavor, and so as not to duplicate what is already out there, miniature games create factions and each faction tends to have their strengths and weaknesses, so you balance these models not on a component basis, but on a system basis. How things work in a vacuum of 1 is often quite different then how they work when they are grouped together. Your comment about flipping a coin in a single isolated incident, and not a system, so raw percentages work, but what if you were flipping a coin over the surface of a viscous liquid that sometimes allowed the coin to land flat, but if the coin hit is at too great of an angle it would slice into the liquid and get stuck? In this case, yes I would ask you if you ever bothered to flip the coin. Add to thus an opponent that could vary the viscosity at a whim, now how does your 50% chance of getting tails work out? The reason I as if you ever bothered to play is because then you get a better understanding of the game on a system level, rather then always looking at it from just ONE aspect of the component level. You examples are always worst case for the piece you want to lose and best case for the one you want to show as over powered. Every faction has strengths and weaknesses, why would I always attack my opponent in ways that favor them? Why would I put one Skorza vs one Brood. Wolves hunt in packs, what are the odds the Brood dies when 2 wolves attack at once? And while you show disdain for stalker and skirmisher, these allows the wolves to always engage the Brood favorably, so they will always be able to focus their strength in ways to negate the broods strengths. As for the Wrath, they have enough varied benefits from enlightenments, that a discussion on ways they can be used to face different units would take a novel to cover.

As for your solution to the Aadanii issue, will it actually fix what you find so abusive? Would it be too much of a nerf? You like to forget that the Aadanii are the only 1 rate Rank 2 infantry out there. your point of "You mean how the Skorza's ability relies on it to actually kill a model or how the Wrath's ability relies on another model and to be in that model's aura radiance? Your right, neither of these rank 2 infantry abilities rely on some outside factor" just supports what I am saying. When a Skorza attacks is completely in control of the Skorza player, if a Wrath is in an enlightenment aura is completely in control of the Shael Han player. When a Brood gets to use its Lash Out ability, that is completely in control of the Aadanii's opponent, since the Aadanii player cannot force the opponent to attack their brood. By outside factor, I meant something that the player has no control off. Aadanii abilities rely on the opponents actions instead of their own.

As for Hadross vs Shael Han - only looking at the rank 1 infantry (since Hadross Rank 2 is very tanky), and with how resonance has become much easier to spread we are again only looking at a 1% difference. A resonating Legionnaire has a 16% chance to kill a lone Deepman, while a Deepman has only a 15% chance to kill a Legionnaire standing next to another Dragon Guard, while under the Keepers Aura. But hey, since we are using leaders, the Deepman has a 30% chance to kill the Guy the initial target was standing next too if he manages to hit that 15% mark the first time.

I guess if you get anything from this, it is the point that you cannot just look at individual components to make balance judgements. They are good to get you in the ballpark, but you need to look at the system as a whole to be able to fine tune the pieces. You also cannot look at best case / worst case to determine balance, you need to find what the typical is. Stressing about how over powered something is over what on paper is a 1% of the time issue seems a bit drastic.

 

[feketelovag]

ROFLMAO... after reading your first paragraph I stopped bothering to read the rest of your post since just your first paragraph shows how ludicrous you are. That 10% chance to kill an enemy rank 2 guy is with their regular attack NOT counting any dice they may roll with the lash-out ability, which, greatly increases your odds. Nor does it consider that at speed 7 the Brood will most likely get to attack first, then survive to lash-out then activate again to attack once more. So if you only see a 1% difference here then I'm sorry but there is no point to continue. Laughable that you think that having the Lash-Out ability triggering 91% of the time is "weak".

Had a good laugh at least.

Good day.

 

[Swan]

Yup, wanted to use ludicrous numbers, since they seem to be the only ones you are able to see and use.

Glad it got your attention, and that yet again you show that you pick and chose, and can't be bothered with looking at the whole.

Try looking at the system, and not just a gear. A single gear can mean anything, only in context can we understand its function.

 

[pararamids]

This reminds me of the old Sufi saying: "You think that because you understand ‘one’ that you must therefore understand ‘two’ because one and one makes two. But you forget that you must also understand ‘and’."

 

[Xavarir]

This is completely unrelated.....but are their rulings on having multiple "named" characters in the same army make up?

Or can I run around 5 Timos? :curl-lip:

 

[Swan]

Very nice Pararmids, very nice

Well, since there has not been any "real" percentages thrown out there, I figured I would work out what an attack of a Skorza vs a Brood Warrior would look like, if a single Skorza attacked the brood one on one in a vacuum ignoring everything but the Skorza'a 2 attack dice, and the Broods Lash Out, since this seems to be Feket's major concern. And because apparently people who play Skorza have really really poor judgement.

This example has the Skorza initiating this foolish (or is it?) attack.


Skorza attacks Brood first
9% Chance that the Brood dies
66% Chance the Brood is Injured
25% Chance the Brood is Unscathed

11.3% Chance the Skorza dies
21.4% Chance the Skorza is Injured
67.4% Chance the Skorza is Unscathed

Brood turn their first attack
26.6% Chance the Skorza dies
33.1% Chance the Skorza is Injured
40.4% Chance the Skorza is Unscathed

Skorza attacks a second time
44.8% Chance that the Brood dies
49.0% Chance the Brood is Injured
6.3% Chance the Brood is Unscathed

33.2% Chance the Skorza dies
32.3% Chance the Skorza is Injured
34.5% Chance the Skorza is Unscathed

At this point there is a 45% Chance that the Brood has died, with only a 33% chance that the Skorza has. Life is looking pretty good for that foolish Skorza.

Brood Attacks a second time
49.6% Chance the Skorza dies
29.8% Chance the Skorza is Injured
20.7% Chance the Skorza is Unscathed

Now the tide has turned a bit with the Skorza having roughly a 50% to be pushing up daisies, while the Brood still has a ~55% chance to continue their dancing frenzy, but life continues a downward spiral for the brood from here.


Skorza attacks a third time
74.1% Chance that the Brood dies
24.4% Chance the Brood is Injured
1.6% Chance the Brood is Unscathed

51.4% Chance the Skorza dies
29.0% Chance the Skorza is Injured
19.6% Chance the Skorza is Unscathed

The Brood's chance of living to this point has dropped to a mere 26% while the Skorza still has nearly a 50% chance of living


Finally, the Brood Third Attack
65.0% Chance the Skorza dies
23.3% Chance the Skorza is Injured
11.8% Chance the Skorza is Unscathed



So, after 6 rounds of combat (three for each side) we find:

Chance of Surviving:
Brood: 25.9%
Skorza: 35.0%

Showing that while a reaction ability like the Aadanii is nifty, it still is under powered compared to a consistent 2 die attack that the Skorza bring to the game. This example shows only the Skorza's native 2 rate attack, ignoring everything else they bring to the table, while the Aadanii used its native attack and its special.

I do want to thank Feket for bringing this issue to my attention, I did not realize until now how under powered the Aadanii actually were. Here I was going along my merry way thinking things were great, now I must petition to get these Abominations fixed from the terrible state they are apparently in.

:disapointed:

 

[Swan]

This is completely unrelated.....but are their rulings on having multiple "named" characters in the same army make up?

Or can I run around 5 Timos? :curl-lip:

Actually there are. Anything with the trait Character, are unique and you can only have 1 in your force. Though I would love to see the battle that allows for 10 ranks of leaders on the field

 

[Xavarir]

Actually there are. Anything with the trait Character, are unique and you can only have 1 in your force. Though I would love to see the battle that allows for 10 ranks of leaders on the field

Probably for the best. It will save me a whack of money in the end.

And I've realized through the back and forth between you and feke that my statistics skills are rusty.

Skorza attacks Brood first
9% Chance that the Brood dies
66% Chance the Brood is Injured
25% Chance the Brood is Unscathed

11.3% Chance the Skorza dies
21.4% Chance the Skorza is Injured
67.4% Chance the Skorza is Unscathed

The Skorza need to roll an over and a hit on two dice to kill the Brood. Isn't this just 1/10 * 5/10, or 5%?

And the Lash Out has a 1/10 chance to kill the Skorza. I don't understand where the 11.3% comes from.

Don't make me go back to school!

PS. I am anxiously waiting the Bill Mays style "WAIT! There's more!" from your last post. Don't disappoint!