Reasonable Criticism

airhead

airhead

Coffin Dodger / Keymaster
Pete if someone told you one of your minis was crap, I\'d be telling them they need thier eyes checked. lol

I do find the ruder comments are from non-forum regulars (Vike reviews them and he may see otherwise). Most of the forum regulars understand that the comments are for improvement, not just bashing.
 
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Ritual

New member
@Avicenna
I know there\'s lots of fluff about Space Marines and other types of minis as well, but I think it\'s a bit silly to assume, without questioning, that everyone should bother about following the fluff. Especially since this is hardly a GW affiliated site, or even a gaming site for that matter. Comments about not staying true to official fluff, from a painter\'s point of view, are IMO completely useless and irrelevant.
 
MPJ

MPJ

New member
While not a GW site, or even a gaming site, fact is most of us are gamers of some sort. Don\'t really think I have a point here, but what the hey.

I\'ve done some gaming but mostly because I love painting minis so the gaming sorta happened along with, have never been a big gamer however.
 
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Torn blue sky

New member
Me neither, at the risk of incoming rotting veg, I\'m not a big fan of gaming at all!
D&D was pretty fun though..thats the size of it. But I barely had to know all the rules to that lol
 
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Highbulp Billy

New member
I\'ve given up all pretence of playing now which seems to confuse the staff at my local GW store...

Staff - \"So, what army do you collect?\"
Me - \"None\"
Staff - \"Ok, but what system do you play?\"
Me - \"None. I don\'t play\"
Staff - \"Oh, so your buying a present for someone?\"
Me - \"No. I paint\"
Staff - ??? What, just paint ???

Surely they know there are people like me in the world? They\'re supposed to be encouraging this side of the hobby too aren\'t they?
 
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vincegamer

New member
Never touched a game in my life.
Can\'t stand the filthy things.

If you believed that I have some great real estate to sell you.

To be up front though, I have only once played a tabletop minis game. Mostly I game with little cardboard counters and cards.
I do however have enough High Elves and Space Marines to field an army of either, though I wouldn\'t know what to do with them.
 
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Torn blue sky

New member
NO!!! *HIIISSSSSS*
HEATHEN!! HERETIC!!!!

My local store gave up on me ages ago, these days it\'s just; \"hey, what you painting these days man?\"

After you get to know the staff all the instore voices go away. Even got some of them into painting more! :beer:
 
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Brimshack

New member
Cool, lot\'s of interesting discussion. Thanks guys. Just picking a couple:

I think what MPJ says about positive comments is interesting. I say that because I really struggle with that in my own career. Tthe thing about teaching is you have to grade stuff, which I hate. When I was in college I really wanted to be one of those hippie teachers that gives every one an \'A\' for trying. That went right out the window the very first batch of papers I graded. I really hate grading papers, and this is one of the reasons. When I\'m grading papers, the mistakes just jump right off the page at me. It is MUCH harder to find somethign positive to say when grading a paper. If I were to go with my first reactions, the comments would almost always be all negative. But at the same time I know that a positive comment or 2 can be the difference between a student giving up entirely and one having the confidence to at least try and correct the mistakes.

Anyway, I suspect the same may be true of painting, especially for newbies. Even though it\'s harder, just saying something positive can help to put the criticisms in perspective. It could be the difference between someone being able to use the criticism and someone who can only bring themselves back to the task after they have mustered the strength to ignore the critis altogether. ...especially for newbies, I think.

On the Space Marine Colours, I think that is a really interesting problem. It\'s what I was getting at when I asked about the possibility of art critic\'s fallacies. The whole question of whether something is a conscious choice or not is one of the most interesting ones to me. I do think that people often assume goals which may not be apparent. A painter might not care what a mini should look like in the scheme of the 40-K universe, but then again they might. So, a criticism treating stuff like the wrong colour choice for a Blood Angel as a simple mistake could be unfair, but informing the person of the consequences of their choice (lettinhg them know it\'s non-standard) could still be very helpful. I think that\'s the sort of thing where the difference between a good point and a bad one could be a very subtle difference in wording.

...eh, just thinking out loud at this point. Thanks for chiming in everybody.
 
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Torn blue sky

New member
Yeah I\'m not a big fan of stamping my own thoughts on someone elses work.
I\'m geting the hang of it now I guess, I just hate seeing something and thinking \"MmmI don\'t like it!\" , telling thems another thing!
I know it\'s constructive, but I like to be more possitive in my output. Telling someone something sucks isn\'t my bag.
 
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SaxonAngel

nada
Originally posted by Highbulp Billy
I\'ve given up all pretence of playing now which seems to confuse the staff at my local GW store...

Surely they know there are people like me in the world? They\'re supposed to be encouraging this side of the hobby too aren\'t they?
Click to expand...

In my neck of the woods the turnaround on employees is staggering. Managers at the GW stores *might* last a year or two. Never mind the lackeys...

My variation is quite similar.
GW Lackey:\" Hi! Are you looking for a gift? Something for the boyfriend? kids? brother?\"
Angela : \"Nope \"
GW Lackey: \" Oh... Do you play then? These are high quality models used in..\" (goes into his wargames salespitch)
Angela : (interrrupting) \"I haven\'t played since second edition 40k.\"
GW Lackey: (stunned) \" Um wow. That was a long time ago. So what are you here for then?\"
Angela : \" A model\"
Gw lackey : \" A model?\"
Angela: \"yup, a model. a [insert name here]\"
GW Lackey: \"Just one? You need a squad and an army to go with it to play\"
Angela: \"I have no intention of playing with it. I\'m going to paint it.\"
GW Lackey: \"Paint?\" (starts stumbling over his words,clearly confused) \"you paint? And then what? Just the one figure? Do you have paints? We sell them you know. I can teach...\"
At this point the manager and one or two or lackeys are usually howling with laughter and take the employee off to the side to show him something I\'ve painted in a catalogue or coverage in an old white dwarf.

The real tragedy is that after chatting with most of the newbies at these stores, is how they\'ve been utterly brainwashed into thinking GW is the only miniatures games company out there. They\'re absolutely flabbergasted when shown something like the Rackham or Warmachine catalogue.
 
MPJ

MPJ

New member
It seems that oddly enough the guys at the local GW store are quite good. One is a customer of mine for Reaper minis and paints even. Another (their best painter) was flattered when I mentioned that I\'d bring my son over for some lessons in the future (they know I paint well but I teach horribly so I figured he could get the basics from someone who teaches better).

All are nice fellows and somewhat knowledgable in areas of gaming outside GW. The only other GW store I frequented more than once was in Katy, TX and they were pretty good there too.
 
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SaxonAngel

nada
Well the GW stores here are actually advertising for employees right now. With the province-wide labor shortage, there is no end to the guys coming in for a few months for minimum wage, only to find out they could easily earn triple that elsewhere. The employee turnover is astounding.

I think the last manager at my closest store lasted as manager about 10 months, and he became that only after working as a lackey for 6...
 
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MarkusTay

New member
Back on track

How quickly we turn to either GW related remarks or sexual innuendo. :eek:

@Vince - You litteraly made me LOL. \"Thats\'s Crap\" is constructive criticism? lol

Criticism yes, but it would be more constructive if you said \"It\'s crap; try using an actual paintbrush next time instead of your mom\'s feather duster\".

And then, only if he were really using the feather duster. ;)

I heard a political commentator today who said something that fits this thread perfectly -

There is no such thing as objectivity, only degrees of subjectivity

Example - I used to give EVERY space marine a 2-3 rating because I just don\'t like space marines, even ones pulling high 9\'s. When I finally realized I was doing this, I stopped voting on them because it was very unfair to the painter. By the same token, I was given a minium of a 7 or 8 to any Werner Klocke mini, regerdless of paintjob because I am a fan. After being here awhile, and learning what to look for, I have become more fair with my voting, but I think I maybe still underate minis I don\'t care for subconsciously.

As far as commenting, that is VERY subjective. I guy who is just starting out and has painted a tabletop quality has done very well, and deserves some pointers. Someone who whines that his mini is painted in the \'natural Style\' and he is underated, when in fact he actually just plain sux should be told so. Some times you just gots ta call \'em as ye\' sees \'em.

BTW, for anyone who missed that thread, click on the link, it\'s a wonderful piece of CMON history and includes CHERN\'S defense of the voting system. Good times... good times... :D
 
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vincegamer

New member
Originally posted by MarkusTay@Vince - You litteraly made me LOL. \"Thats\'s Crap\" is constructive criticism? lol

Criticism yes, but it would be more constructive if you said \"It\'s crap; try using an actual paintbrush next time instead of your mom\'s feather duster\".
Click to expand...
Okay, fair enough. Perhaps it\'s more \"destructive\" criticism.
My point remains though that because it is critical and it is attached to a name, it can be the beginning of improving.
It\'s a bad way to start a dialogue, but it is a start. It\'s not personal and it\'s limited to the mini, so it can be seen to be constructive.
 
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SaxonAngel

nada
Originally posted by MarkusTay

Back on track

How quickly we turn to either GW related remarks or sexual innuendo. :eek:
Click to expand...

Whatdya expect?? These are the CMON forums!!!lol

How\'s abouts them boobies:rolleyes:lol
 
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treide

New member
I don\'t mind harsh criticism if it is coupled with suggestions. Take a look at my elf mage and smoke elemental from my first few submissions in my gallery and read some of the funny comments NSA left. I might have been offended initially, but realized that he was giving me useful feedback, and I have improved (at least a little).

I actually prefer getting negative feedback than no feedback at all. I think newbies like myself don\'t realize initially that posting on the forums is key to getting good feedback. Several forum regulars will consistently give useful feedback when someone posts such a request, and they should be commended for it.

I also have seen comments that I thought were completely off the wall. For example, some of the best painters on the site get comments like \"This is not up to your usual standard, why didn\'t you use such and such technique\" or \" Why did you bother painting this blah figure, your skills deserve better\". I think those comments are misguided. The best painters are entitled to paint a mini simply, if they feel that is the best approach. Every mini doesn\'t need SENMM, transclucent clothing, and OSL. Give me a break!
 
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