dont you hate overrated minis?

Evil Dave

New member
@shadzar
The voting guide is a guideline, nothing is written in stone.
And while you may personally believe the site needs further definition, the crux of the matter is this: You do not own it. If Chern Ann likes it the way it is, who are you to dispute him?
The internet is a huge space, feel free to make your own site with as much definition, and as much leeway or not as you want.
Competition is always good.

It just smacks of jealousy to me, and it seems that those crying about it tend to think their opinions are somehow more \"special\". The votes show that they are not.

CMON is and always has been what the creators, the voters, and the forumites have made it.

What I do find amusing is the majority of people who are complaining have been on the site for quite a while but very few have a significant amount of posts.

You want to change things? Be part of the community, be part of the site, don\'t just use it for your personal gain and bitch about it when it doesn\'t go your way.

Maybe it\'s just me, but when someone offers me something free, with access to many, many talented people in the community to better myself, and a free area of recognition that if I were a seller I could show my wares, I don\'t think I\'d bitch about it.
 
S

Shadzar

Guest
Originally posted by Evil Dave
What I do find amusing is the majority of people who are complaining have been on the site for quite a while but very few have a significant amount of posts.

sorry i thought the site was coolMINIornot.com, not coolFORUMPOSTornot.com

and i find it funny you say effectively \"post more\" yet say my opinion doesn\'t matter.

contradict yourself much?

maybe those people that wanted the inclusion of bust should have made thier own site for competition? would have kept costs down here for actual minis.

and as for your \"loud mouth\" posters concept. i prefer quality over quantity. i never fell prey to the concept that someone with more post was ever anything than someone likes to post more. more posts =\\= good posts.

so even in your contradictory post you said i should post more so i did. i voiced my opinion. if you don\'t like it them jsut skip it. welcome to forums, you are not required to comment on every post made in a forum as if they were directed at you. the internet does not revolve around you. ;)

i find it funny i have had to tell that last bit to many other people on many forums of late. shows a degradation in forums in general and people ability to use them.

well you now have my opinion and since you don\'t agree, hurry up and vote your 1\'s on all my image like a standard retaliatory personal would so we can get on with reality. and i will continue to vote on things based on MY criteria. busts and greens are NOT tabletop quality as they are not mini and would only get a 4 at most.

:drunk:
 

Friar

Dorks for Orks
As was said earlier anything under 1:1 scale I would count as a mini.

But most importantly having a community with Sculptors, Historical buffs, and larger scale projects like busts helps bring in a diverse set of skills and talent as well as a diverse point of view. I feel it would be a great loss for all sides to lose out on the comments, techniques, tips and so on; the Historical mini artist can contribute ways of obtaining supreme realism as well as using mediums that aren\'t used much else where (such as oils so on) While the sculptor can enjoy the feedback of what folk are looking to one day be able to paint, and we on the painting side get to see and learn how to enhance our own work from them. One of the greatest things about this site is the multitude and diversity it brings together.

Secondly it is my understanding that one of the purposes of this site is the promotion of the miniature hobby by offering a way to bolster and advertise small and independant artists and these spaces that are available for ebay spots and what have you generate revenue for CMON (it\'s been a while since I read it but I believe they are $0.75 a clip if I\'m wrong my apologies). Not to mention the amount of help, instruction, and inspiration many of these artist give is invaluable.

As far as the actuall topic this thread was started on, the mini as I understand it had been linked onto the artists site this piece recieved 450 or so votes (most others up at the time where at 75 - 150). Now while the piece wasn\'t to the level that is noramlly in the top 7 for the week IMO. There is nothing wrong with posting a link to your work on your site and if your site brings your piece alot of friendly traffic and votes it up, power to em it is by no means doin anything unethical or trying to \"cheat\" the vote system. The person didn\'t ask folk to vote a certain way all they did was let people know if they wanted to check it out they could and if they did to please vote. Hell if I could generate that much traffic from the web-community I would lol I\'d just be tickled that all those folk where interested in what I had done.

Well for what it\'s worth those are my thoughts

Enjoy
 

skeeve

New member
Originally posted by Evil Dave

What I do find amusing is the majority of people who are complaining have been on the site for quite a while but very few have a significant amount of posts.

What I find amusing is that on the site devoted to PAINTING a person with a single mini in his gallery believes that the number of post on forum is important.

I am sorry, but the number of posts on ANY internet forum reflects one thing and ONE thing ONLY - the amount of free time a specific poster has.
 

supervike

Super Moderator
Dave doesn\'t need me defending him, but he\'s hardly the type that would vote \'ones\' as a retaliatory measure.

But to be honest, I don\'t even understand the veracity of the arguments here.

So, let\'s keep it on topic and drop the personal attacks......

For the record, I do NOT think its a personal attack on someone to say that a piece is over rated. I disagree with it (as I stated in my previous post) but I think the critiques should be kept on the painting, sculpting, or bust making.

However, a few of these last posts are getting awfully snippy and I am asking that it please stop.

Don\'t force me to get all moderaty, cause I hate that part..:cool:
 

Evil Dave

New member
@Shadzar,

It\'s not contradictory at all. If someone like SuperVike or Wiccanpony or myriad others were complaining I and a few others might actually listen.
Why?
Because they contribute, they don\'t just take from the table, they bring something to it.
But in the end, do their opinions matter, not really, unless Chern Ann decides they do.
The site is not a Democracy, we have no say so in it. We only vote on what we think is Cool or Not. Everything else is the choice of the owner.

No one here, including myself, never said that you can\'t vote using your own criteria. Just that you are foolish if you believe everyone\'s criteria is the same as yours.
If you believe everyone should vote to your criteria, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from creating your own website.
But if everyone is voting on your criteria it isn\'t really a vote then is it? It\'s just people parroting your opinion, we don\'t do that here.

So you have a criteria, I have a criteria, randomguy has a criteria. All are different. Whose is wrong? In reality, none are, because that\'s the way the owner of this site made it.
The person who tries to push his criteria as the best though, well, seems to me he has a mighty high opinion of himself, and a disregard of other\'s likes and dislikes.

If you\'ve been having problems on many forums of late maybe it\'s time to look at the one common denominator to all those forums. Can you guess what it is?

As to going vote ones on your mini\'s, now that would be entirely childish, mean spirited behavior. The fact that you suggested it, in fact accused it, though does make me question your standards of behavior.
I personally don\'t do that, in fact, I really don\'t care about it happening to mine.

Because in truth, the numbers don\'t mean shit.
 

Evil Dave

New member
Originally posted by skeeve
Originally posted by Evil Dave

What I do find amusing is the majority of people who are complaining have been on the site for quite a while but very few have a significant amount of posts.

What I find amusing is that on the site devoted to PAINTING a person with a single mini in his gallery believes that the number of post on forum is important.

Depending on who it is, yes it is.
When those that are on here for years and the only time they speak in the forums is to bitch, they are automatically of less value to me than those who constantly post on here to help others or look for advice, or even those who come here just to joke around.
This was not an attack at low posters by the way, but a suggestion that joining in and being part of the community might get you listened to.

Also, if you go to the Forum Index the site is not devoted solely to painting and in fact, painting topics is outnumbered by gaming topics.
 
S

Shadzar

Guest
@supervike

to not include any actuall mini or for more factual wording image, what are we then talking about?

i don\'t know what mini was in question, but thoguht the general idea was that the concept of bloated voting?

or voting against the grain so to speak. what is the topic at hand?

if it is about one specific image then isnt that disallowed? if it is about the concept of overrated images then shouldnt all aspect be considered such as the purpose of the site itself?

What kind of picture is accepted here?
Any picture of any painted or converted miniature is accepted. You must own the rights to the picture to post it.

in the context that overrated iamges themselves is the problem and not a specific one, then maybe an update of the FAQ need to be made. as i read it an unpainted scratchbuilt model doesn\'t even classify as acceptable. its scratchbuilt not converted.

and a totally handmade unpainted green, or sculpt; doesn\'t belong as it is neither converted or painted.

now say you looks at some spcific artists. Shawn R. L. includes several pics with his Steam Budda. going from unpainted sculpt to finished painted sculpt. this is a good sculpt and had i not scrolled down i would have given it a 4 as being unpainted and NOT tabletop quality. but i did scroll down and saw the finished painted version so gave it a much higher score since it did fit within the FAQ for the rules on what images are acceptable.

now another artist, and i love the work don\'t get me wrong on this one; Nym has many greens that aren\'t painted. for the \"greens\" themselves i vote on them on my 4 point scale. they aren\'t painted so i don\'t vote anything as tabletop quality of 5 as per the voting guide.* now for the painted versions i voted on them as a finished product. as i said before quite good.

now this isnt trying to single anybody out, just some of the most recent artists i have viewed their galleris due to interest in their work, and applied my voting techniques to them.

* yes i know it is a guide, but again if the voting community has no base to judge from, or has never (like myself) been to a GW GD or any event to see a Golden Deamon or its voting criteria or process then all they have is this \"guide\" to go by to form a baseline comparison with which to vote on all minis.

some people may pad their votes. i thought the system ignored votes from non-registers visitors to prevent padded votes. maybe i am mistaken, or maybe it should be considered if it isnt implemented.

i can see it possibly causing and solving problems both, but someone else can create a thread for discussing that if it needs be to be further explained.

so where does the baseline criteria for voting come into play, or does it?

@Dave i see your post here while making this one so i will read it now and respond if i feel the need to to parts of it.

fatal flaw in concept you have. - says Yoda.

while you are trying to express the senoirity of people you are doing so with quantity > quality. it shouldn\'t matter who has a concern about something such as a problem with the pr0n ads or voting errors. each memebrs opinions should be heard and given a ceratin amount of weight. it shouldn\'t be that just the top forums posters opinions matter.

are you saying contribute as in monetarily, or giving their ideas and opinions about the site and or images found herein? if its the former then again that is wrong. might as well make the site subscription only then everyone will start out with the same weight to their ideas and opinions. if its the latter, then i do contribute what i can.

i am not the best photographer, nor painter. i haven\'t even scultped that much. but i give my opinon and advice for any who may wish to try my \"crazy\" ideas.

i have made an article giving ideas for cost conscience terrain builders, or those who need something for use rather than display. i also am willing to help someone make a photo better if they wish and don\'t have the ability or time so their great minis get scores they deserve for the mini rather than scores for a shotty photo or a bad background.

but you see it that since you post more, and spend money i guess you contribute more so your opnion should be more valued.

again i prefer quality over quantity.

and as said above we need a baseline for voting otherwise everything could have a 10 vote and it all boils down to the minis with the most votes \"wins\".

i am not trying to push my criteria on anyone, just trying to figure out what the baseline is, and offer my own for people to consider where it falls on that baseline for comparision of minis and everyone elses criteria. you are reading things into my posts that do not exist.

ah i see, the one common factor is easily seen. all forums today have people who think the forums only exist for them not the community. the forums itself is for the founders/creators, not the community. the rabid posters who like to spam to increase their post count are the most important because they clicked the submit button/link on the \"new topic\" or \"post reply\" pages.

those are the common denominators, which again i reply with... quality of posts over quantity. and anyone who prounces out with an attitude of i am more worthy because i have more post just looks to everyone like a braggart because of a clicking contest. ranking systems awarding post counts special things on forums is the root of problems for spam posts, and other things realtive to them.

anyway i have asked my question of supervike and the rest of the community and taken your belittlement enough. so since i am unworthy because i don\'t play the clicking submit buttong the most game i will leave here and watch for a response to that quesiton.

\"what is the baseline for voting on the site, if there is one; and what purpose does the \'voting guide\' serve if it isnt that baseline?\"
 

Sand Rat

New member
Even the GD\'s don\'t have a consistant scoring guide - look at what wins in the States vs Great Britain vs the Continent - totally different styles of painting - if there was one uniform concept, then they should all look the same - yet they do not.

Even GD judging is objective - there is no way you are going to get everyone who comes to this site to vote the same on every piece - hell I can\'t even get my girlfriend to vote the same way on every piece I post - and I live with her.
 

Evil Dave

New member
Originally posted by Shadzar
i am not trying to push my criteria on anyone, just trying to figure out what the baseline is, and offer my own for people to consider where it falls on that baseline for comparision of minis and everyone elses criteria. you are reading things into my posts that do not exist.
Fair enough, I apologize if you thought I was attacking you.
In truth I did read a bit more into your posts, but the main point I\'m trying to make is this:

It is as it is, and until Chern Ann decides differently it will be as it is. (Kinda Zenish, eh?)

So everyone relax, it\'s a hobby.
Do we really need to get all bent out of shape over a hobby?

edit: When I say contribute, I mean those that contribute to the community, whether it be from advise, to sharing tips, to just hanging out and playing, to discussing painting and gaming. I, myself, am a gamer at heart so can\'t comprehend getting bent out of shape over points that really mean nothing.
 
S

Shadzar

Guest
Originally posted by Evil Dave
It is as it is, and until Chern Ann decides differently it will be as it is.

So everyone relax, it\'s a hobby.
Do we really need to get all bent out of shape over a hobby?
one final thought. yes the admin decides, but i am sure other have input or there would be a lot fewer images while the admin/founder is on work/vacation.

yes is it a hobby for some, but job for others. for the who may aspire to turnign their hobby into a job, it may have an adverse effect having votes constantly drop because or no baeseline for comparision that can be applied by people. thus causing the want to do better to lesson and novices to get frustrated to the point of giving up.

this is not conductive of increasing the hobby as the sites initial intention. maybe a resaon there are only some 5600 ranked members worldwide. i personally know people that paint better than me, but refuse to post anythign here because of the lambasting(sp?) they would get. rather than constructive criticism that could help them be even better, they would get things like a recent WIP of mine got, \"this is a pile of poo.\" with a rating of 1.

so does current practices allow for the growth of the mini painting community as a whole, or could it in part be detracting from it due to CMoN. (well we know some people are starting painting more because those copyright infringing eBooks on eBay of the articles here.)

i myself would prefer more crappy painters that will get better so mini don\'t die, rather than only a few in the upper eschilon who paint really good, but don\'t paint enough to keep manufacturers competing to make better products and we all end up having to go back to Testors enamel paints. :|~
 

Evil Dave

New member
@shadzar,
I\'m genuinely curious here.
Wouldn\'t it make more sense for people who are painting for a living to create their own website with members only allowed to vote, as to not be so affected by the fickle public?
I would think that would be far more what professional painters need, as if I recall correctly, anyone can vote here, member or not.
I mean this is coming from my point of view that if the business doesn\'t do what I want, then I\'ll go elsewhere. If they don\'t have it, if I want it bad enough, I\'ll create it.

I guess what I\'m saying is: Would it be better to try to force something to work for you (an almost impossible task here, and pretty much against what was trying to be accomplished here) or would it be better to create something that does what you need from the get go? IE: Do you keep wearing the shoes that don\'t fit, or do you go buy another pair?
 
S

Shadzar

Guest
Originally posted by Evil Dave
@shadzar,
I\'m genuinely curious here.
Wouldn\'t it make more sense for people who are painting for a living to create their own website with members only allowed to vote, as to not be so affected by the fickle public?
I would think that would be far more what professional painters need, as if I recall correctly, anyone can vote here, member or not.

maybe something to think about. is CMoN now a palce for professional to showcase their work, or a place for ALL painters to spread the hobby. what does the voting do if the pros are using CMoN for the minimal fees of it, versus running their own website and paying for their own bandwidth.

all of this is food for thought. i don\'t begrudge pros from posting, but question if CMoN has only become an avenue for pros to sell through via free image hosting for eBay et all, or as a shopping cart.

www. cMoN.com/artist/pro-user being the URL for their catalog.

i agree pros should get their own sites. godaddy with all its flaws offers 2000 gigs a month bandwith, 200 gigs storage, linux and full functioning PHP or windows with ASP support. for like $10 a year domain name fees, and $20 a month hosting fees. $250 per year for an online business isnt that bad for what you get.

but it all boils down, as you said to, Chern An and the direction CMoN is wanted to be. is it for aspiring pros/causal painters to get better, or for current pros to use as nearly free internet hosting.

again some food for thought that may need some heavy chewing.
 

Severatus

New member
I am usually pleased to see an 8.0 on my minis.

It\'s either friends or genius that gets the 9.+

We all know which applies in such cases.

If you wanna check out some other underated minis check out these.

http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZgolden_demon_winner_th

;)
 

Dragonsreach

Super Moderator
Let me put this in perspective for you=
Storm.jpg

In a
teacup.jpg


Heres a
silbury-hill.jpg


Get over it.
 

squidders

New member
I always thought the judging on CMON was for the mini as a whole, not just the paint applied to it.

As for the actual grades, I\'d be very interested to see what the site average is but I suspect it\'s going to be in the 6\'s which considering the variation of photography and painting, would be very generous... just a suspicion though of course.

I used to think I was a decent painter and thinking back, probably would have wanted a 7.5 or so for my minis... now I have seen what is out there, I see mine are no more than 5\'s, even if they did take a fair while to paint!

If I were to start selling, my profitability is only a function of how well I paint and market my minis... if I can\'t make a good photo, I can\'t expect anyone to take it on faith that the mini is good.

I have a few minis that I think are way better than the votes they were given but as long as i\'m happy with them, I don\'t really care. It\'s not a selfish attitude but my happiness means more to me than a grade.

As an aside, and this may sound like brown nosing but I think the site works very well indeed. Every single day I get to see new inspiring minis and that is brilliant. The mods on the forums are fair and neutral and the general standard of everything from good will to advice is very high.

In summary: meh :D
 

skarekrow

New member
ok out of pure malice i will show you what got my attention.

http://www.coolminiornot.com/181371

this is the model wich was up at 8.8 when i saw it, to me it hardly looks that good, i might be picky and plain stupid since i dont fel this models awesomeness....


and i dont really care about numbers, but there must be alot better models out there. my apologies to whoever painted this, but other models were being hung out to dry in pure speculation.
 

Sand Rat

New member
Even the painter admits on his website its overrated - hmm methinks Mike is right - tis a tempest in a teacup over voting again - everyone to the Freak Bar, I\'m buying.


EVERYBODY DRINK!!!:drunk:
 

airhead

Coffin Dodger / Keymaster
This looks like what the \"Discuss Minis\" forum is for. Post a mini number and discuss. Usually this is done by the owner in an attempt to gain constructive critisisim or an attempt to pimp votes (or both.)

As to the score, it seems to have worked itself out. (amazing how that happens if you give it enough time). Is the score where I would vote? no. But very few minis here are where I vote. Some higher, some lower.

As to greens, I tend to not vote on them as I would give most of them a 10 due to how hard I find it to work GS. (my GS Foo is weak.)
 
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