3rd Infantry type?

[Xavarir]

Now?

The plastic update was nice and all, but my mom wasn't really a fan and didn't know what to make of it all. :curl-lip:

Surely, it's time for more 3rd infantry updates. We already have some information on the Fel Hammers so a update similar to the one produced for Addanii would be swell!

 

[Xavarir]

*slowly starts to go insane from the sound of crickets chirping*

 

[CMON Michael Shinall]

Frrrriiiiidaaaayyyyyy.

 

[Xavarir]

Frrrriiiiidaaaayyyyyy.

 

[Swan]

That is so wrong

 

[Keats]

Frrrriiiiidaaaayyyyyy.

If it wouldn't take me a few lifetimes to invent a time-traveling device I would totally do that and read the update now...

 

[Keats]

Cruel and unusual punishment

Xavarir, my Hadross landsharks will eat your dolphin hand!

 

[Xavarir]

Xavarir, my Hadross landsharks will eat your dolphin hand!

No dolphin hands here! Only psycho mutant babies and land octopuses!

 

[PraetorDragoon]

I hope we get something substantional friday, and not some some teasing. (No mr.Black, this is not encouragement! Don't do it!)

I think that the Sharks & Hammerers have the most chance of appearing, based on our hints so far.

 

[Xavarir]

I hope we get something substantional friday, and not some some teasing. (No mr.Black, this is not encouragement! Don't do it!)

I think that the Sharks & Hammerers have the most chance of appearing, based on our hints so far.

I'm assuming at this point they either:

A) Don't have all the details done for the units.

or

B) Are releasing unit information bit by bit to keep people distracted from whining about delays (I also suspect that A) is partially to blame for the delays).

The game was supposed to be delivered this month which means people would have been buying things they knew nothing about. Even now, we only have the details for ONE of the 3rd infantry sets and the corresponding rank 2 leader. Only four more 3rd infantry sets, new leaders, AND specialists to go! At this rate the game will be delivered and we STILL won't know the details for all the units.

CMON have been allowing people to add to their pledge and two of the four people I split my pledge with have been toying with the idea of adding the 3rd infantry and leaders to their armies. I imagine CMON will be cutting this option off as it nears closer to shipping time. It would be nice to have the stats to play test with before they stop allowing people to add to their pledges. :suspicious:

 

[CMON Michael Shinall]

I'm assuming at this point they either:

A) Don't have all the details done for the units.

or

B) Are releasing unit information bit by bit to keep people distracted from whining about delays (I also suspect that A) is partially to blame for the delays).

The game was supposed to be delivered this month which means people would have been buying things they knew nothing about. Even now, we only have the details for ONE of the 3rd infantry sets and the corresponding rank 2 leader. Only four more 3rd infantry sets, new leaders, AND specialists to go! At this rate the game will be delivered and we STILL won't know the details for all the units.

CMON have been allowing people to add to their pledge and two of the four people I split my pledge with have been toying with the idea of adding the 3rd infantry and leaders to their armies. I imagine CMON will be cutting this option off as it nears closer to shipping time. It would be nice to have the stats to play test with before they stop allowing people to add to their pledges. :suspicious:

Xavarir... I do feel insulted by this, I honestly do.


The rules for the units, new and old, have been done for some time, but I didn't want to release them because, well, I think that releasing everything before the actual release ruins some of the surprise and fun for people. To me, it ruins some of the magic and excitement of a project if you know every little thing about it before you even get it- no sense of discovery and whatnot.

The rules were in, and I will stress this, no way involved in the delay, which was purely a production problem- sadly the most common occurrence in mass producing...well anything.

But to even suggest that something like the rules got in the way of release... It's just insulting to my department, and is basically saying they, and I, are not efficient at our time and/or capable at our jobs-and I can say I am not pleased at such an assumption. I respect the work my staff does, and their dedication to the projects they work on, and I will not see people lay accusations questions their competency in either area.


The fact that any of the new unit details have been released is specifically because I felt bad there was even a delay to begin with, and wanted something to tide people over to make it more palatable- I can't control production, that's a problem for, well, Production (who were just as disappointed in the delay as anyone else here at CMoN), but here in Development I do what I can for the players using the means I have available.

So please, understand that, while I am not angry at your comment, I am not pleased at what it suggests.

 

[Keats]

Mr. Black, I respect your right to be upset by the statement and am not weighing in on whether it was wrong or not. I would like to point out that a lot of really great kickstarters that have recently been partially released have had a multitude of rules errors and delays. I will just come out and say it, Myth has shaken a lot of my faith in kickstarter companies, the rules were a mess, the game was lacking components that it required, and the creators were combative, and rude to backers, so some people are getting worried about kickstarter projects.
I have a lot of respect for your team and think you have done a great deal of work on this, and think you should be proud of the product you have delivered. After the delay announcement I was kind of an asshole in the comments and your team still thanked me for my support. Seriously! I took a look at myself and wondered why I was so upset and got over it. I am very impressed with the work you are doing, maybe a month ago you posted a thanks to the community, that was really cool.
If you head to your kickstarter page and look at the comments, count the number of complaints since the delay was announced. Counting mine there might be 6-10. Wade through the moat of hate on Myth and a few other projects and you will see how much your community really trusts, appreciates, and respects you and the work you have done and continue to do.
I don't know if Xavarir intended to offend, he is actually wanting to give you guys more money!
At any rate, now it is my turn to thank you. Thank you for handling this with dignity and tact, thank you for being upfront with delays, thank you for the previews you have provided, and thank you for Wrath of Kings, when it gets here, or hells even before it gets here because I have had fun proxying it with my wife and all my reaper bones, and have really enjoyed the novel and faction lore.

 

[jameshasker09]

Aye i do agree that you guys have handled it well
and would prefer to wait a lil long for a polished game
i agree that some surprised yes so keep the characters and specialists left a surprise
as to the 3rd infantry, will the rules be up every 2 weeks?
just would be nice to know when they are coming out
rather then waiting just to hear a peep on edge of my seat all the time lol
me and my friend are waiting so we can have bigger games
and he (sheal han) wants some more rank1 infantry to use so he isnt completly outnumbers and down by moral
and id like my rank 2 helfammers those guys look like the dogs boll***s :,)
cant wait to play them

 

[Xavarir]

Xavarir... I do feel insulted by this, I honestly do.


The rules for the units, new and old, have been done for some time, but I didn't want to release them because, well, I think that releasing everything before the actual release ruins some of the surprise and fun for people. To me, it ruins some of the magic and excitement of a project if you know every little thing about it before you even get it- no sense of discovery and whatnot.

The rules were in, and I will stress this, no way involved in the delay, which was purely a production problem- sadly the most common occurrence in mass producing...well anything.

But to even suggest that something like the rules got in the way of release... It's just insulting to my department, and is basically saying they, and I, are not efficient at our time and/or capable at our jobs-and I can say I am not pleased at such an assumption. I respect the work my staff does, and their dedication to the projects they work on, and I will not see people lay accusations questions their competency in either area.

The fact that any of the new unit details have been released is specifically because I felt bad there was even a delay to begin with, and wanted something to tide people over to make it more palatable- I can't control production, that's a problem for, well, Production (who were just as disappointed in the delay as anyone else here at CMoN), but here in Development I do what I can for the players using the means I have available.

So please, understand that, while I am not angry at your comment, I am not pleased at what it suggests.

I'm sorry that you were insulted by what I said above. It certainly wasn't my intention to insult you or anyone on the WoK team. It was merely an attempted explanation as to why the details of the remaining units have not been released. The delay, combined with the slow release (tidbit spoilers) of unit information, lends itself to speculation. One could easily interpret that as "we are being fed the information as it is finalized by the development team" (aka, things aren't completely finished). The mentioning of the delay, and hinting that incomplete units might have something to do with it, was not the backbone of my post. I don't care if the game is delayed.......I wouldn't even have cared if the delay was caused by incomplete units, at least we would know why we didn't have all the information. Again, I truly am sorry that I insulted you and your development team.

I have never played a miniature tabletop war game before Wrath of Kings. They seemed too overwhelming, confusing, pricey, etc, and I never even bothered to give them a chance. I was so impressed and enamored by WoK that I immediately told my gaming group about it, and soon everyone was on-board.

Perhaps things are done differently in the world of miniature tabletop war gaming, but the notion of "paying for something you know nothing about" leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I find this part especially confusing after spending some time the past few months attending some of the local tabletop nights and watching some tabletop sessions. They are fiercely competitive and have spent hundreds of dollars to build they army they want. Out of the tens, or hundreds, of different units available, the same ten types or so keep re-appearing, again and again. To me this means that some units are more valuable/effective than others.

Now, my gaming group may never enter the world of competitive tabletop war gaming, but I imagine CMON hopes that WoK will reach the competitive level. And I imagine that there are backers that plan to play WoK competitively if given the chance. These veteran tabletop players will find those units/combinations within WoK and will use them almost exclusively in competitive play. Everything else will probably just be great looking miniatures that sit on a shelf and collect dust. Why would they want to play with units that are are a disadvantage from the start? They probably won't even buy them, but at this point they are forced to "gamble" with their money in hopes that the units they know nothing about will be effective. Again, most of my play will probably be casual kitchen table play for fun so I'll use what I want, but it may apply to others who intend to do more with WoK.

That was a long tangent to my real concern/inquiry.......which is unit balance.

While I do understand your desire to preserve the magic and excitement, I am more concerned that this second wave of units will not have received the same attention as the others (please don't take offense to this statement).

There was a tremendous amount of back and forth between you and passionate backers/enthusiasts here on the forums after the Kickstarter campaign ended. Discussions about rule changes, unit balancing, everything under the sun. It was clear that some units needed adjusting, and people were glad to voice their concerns and opinions, essentially acting as play-testers, for the betterment of the game. My group and I played proxy games just about every time a unit received a revision (I'm not even allowed to play with the Addanii because it's "not fair"! ), and feedback comments came from other people on the forums who were play testing too. This back and forth went on for weeks and weeks and directly resulted in numerous changes to just about every unit, and major changes to some core mechanics (motivations, morale, etc). In my opinion, this resulted in a much better balance between the factions and a much more enjoyable game to play.

According to updates the game is scheduled to be delivered sometime around August. Since that is only three months away, and you have now confirmed that all the development work is done, there will be no feedback collected on the new units. Aren't you worried that some of these units will fall flat when stacked against the others? Or the opposite? I know you guys have probably play tested everything to death but there are others who are willing to help, and if the past is any indication, you guys are willing to listen.

If you continue to release one unit update every week, it will take almost two months, and it will be impossible for people to play test them. I for one would like to help. I'm sure there are probably others. I'm sure there are people who want to protect their wallet as well. Maybe it's too late, you've already submitted everything, it's currently being printed, and we will have to live with what we get. Maybe not.

I realize after ranting for however long this has taken that I am little too "wrapped up" in the details for a game who's genre I disliked not long ago.

TL;DR

- Sorry
- I'm new to table top miniature war games
- I'm excited for Wrath of Kings
- I don't like paying for things I don't know about
- Some miniature war gamers are super competitive and have infinite funds
- Unit/game balance is more important to me than magic and excitement
- I like when game developers use backers/fans/etc as a playtesting medium
- I am impatient

 

[Keats]

Xavarir, you raise valid concerns. Note that this is COMPLETE speculation and I have no connection to CMoN other than perhaps being a fanboy. They *MAY* be doing closed playtesting with some of the people who were posting battle reports regularly. If they are not I have faith they are doing internal playtesting with more than just 4 people who designed it and their pet dog (man I need to come off the Myth hate, it's an alright game honestly).

As a side note- CMoN has said that unit cards will always be available on their website for free download. If your group is really hesitant on pledging for third infantry you may just download/print the cards when they become available and proxy the minis and pick them up retail if you really like them. It will be more expensive, but less risk. CMoN, has been very willing to make balance adjustments to cards, worst case scenario, if something is a little out of balance *I believe* they will quickly resolve any issues and have new cards for PDF print. I like you, and appreciate your contributions to the forums (which may mean little to you, cause I'm just some guy on the internet) and want to clarify that I wasn't condemning your actions.
I'm also new to war gaming, been a board game or RPG guy for a long time, but am very excited about Wrath of Kings.

 

[Swan]

Now we see the Fel Hammers in all their Glory. They truly are frightening, and should be able to cut a large swath through their enemy, but at what cost? Using Elemental Fury gives them Critical Blow 2, meaning that on most units they have a 30% chance per attack die to hit an Over Power, not many things are going to stand up to that. Then you add in the Rank 1 Leaders Training and Inspire, and these guys just keep hitting. Whether they pass the will check or fail it, more attacks occur. One the down side, Elemental fury has a 64% chance of damaging the Fel Hammer - with a 16% chance that enough damage will occur to kill them, but even in death the Fel Hammer gets one final blow.

Their Achilles Heal though is their vulnerability to ranged and magic attacks. With these attacks having a 60% chance to hit the Fel Hammer, a few early shots will temper their ability to race in leaving a swath of death behind.

I like them, a little more killy then I expected, and the fact that Elemental Fury triggers at the end of the activation truly makes these guys the Big Risk / Big Reward troops of the Nasier. Will be interesting to get some table time in with these guys and see if they truly are as scary on the table as they look on paper.

Once again I think that CMoN has done a nice job making a Unique troop, with arguably the highest rate of attack of any figure in the game, balanced with their ability to be unable to sustain this combat advantage. The question now becomes, can they last long enough to break the enemies morale before they begin to collapse on the field of battle.

 

[Keats]

Swan, going to have us a battle report of flying babies vs. Fel Hammers soon? I love your battle reports! I'm too wrapped up in college and work to play or paint anything currently

 

[Ender_101]

Looking at the Fell Hammers, I think I'm in love. I'm a huge fan of big risk, big reward in games (I play an all Satyxis themed Cryx list for example, and used to play a very magic centric Dark Elves in Warhammer fantasy before I left it. My favorite magic deck of all time to play was a Suicide Black deck (can I kill you before I kill me? Bring it.), so these guys look like a ton o' fun in my less than humble opinion. Fun that will be very risky and terrifying to behold. But fun never the less!

Was it too late to add to orders?

Another Question: in the description of the Unmasked: "One thing to note is that, while the Unmasked truly is one of the better combat Leaders in the game she also carries the risks of Unleash Fury, so, once again, careless plays will end up only forcing a loss for both her and the Fel Hammers under her care!" But on her card I see no such ability listed.

In the comments section it was said this was an accidental older version of the card, is she supposed to have Unleash Fury?

 

[Crewgar]

Hey guys, just to say I really can't wait for this Kickstarter to come out, nut while I wait, Mr Black, thank you so much for these hints! I love them and have already added the Third Infantry, mostly because I'm seeing them and loving the rules as they come out (even the rules for factions that I haven't picked up, they're so awesome that they really make it so that I want to see the ones I have ordered! ). As to the questions of delays, guys, look at the first few updates! All the Third Infantry and later stretch goal specialists are listed as "stuff we're working on that won't be in the initial release, but will be following on." So if you want a cause, I'd say that it'ss totally how awesome the game is and how they were not expecting anywhere near this level of people coming in, and also that they added a ton of stuff as rewards that was further behind on the release schedule. That being said, it's all awesome stuff, so I love that I'm getting it, whenever it comes! Really can't say that often enough! But for those who keep wondering about it, it's a kickstarter, what that means is we're funding the production of a product... not pre-ordering something that's already ready, so that we have it on the first day, but helping fund the making of something that's still being worked on... Think about how many things run late or take longer than expected, then think about how they got over 600% of what they initially hoped for... but that means making 600% more models, just for us backers, then they initially expected.... plus adding in all the models for the stretch goals..... so, would I have loved having the models already? Ya, of course, I can't wait for them! But I also understand the delay, and love the spoilers that we're getting!

Also ya this idea of leaks and spoilers ahead of time is something that is common in miniature games, though it's not usually from the developers, which means that everything is muddled and no one knows what is true or not, so thanks again Mr. Black! These updates are totally feeding my desire to start playing this, just as you say you'd intended, and knowing that they're accurate, and we're not speculating over totally random made up stuff is awesome!

Now on to the spoilers! WOW I can't wait to use those Fell Hammers! Plus Bloodchild will help reduce the risk, so really glad I added him to my pledge at the start... really tempted to do an All or Nothing Alpha Strike army of Swordsmen, Blood Child and as many Hammers as I can Plus I've always loved weapons that hit hard, but can backfire horribly, even though my dice hate me and I usually have things backfire far more than they statistically should

I am curious about Ender's question though, if the update (as opposed to the card picture) is right, they are one of the hardest hitting leaders out there... and I can't wait to try them out!

Now if I can only start hearing rumors about my other 3 Infantry... the dancing ladies

 

[number2648]

So, after having a few days to get them in order, here's my initial thoughts.

The fel hammers are almost exactly what I was expecting. The only differences are the crit on the hammers(was expecting sundering), and the exposion on death seems really nice. I don't think I would ever run a large number of them, but definitely going to take them as a monster hunting squad. I don't think I'd use elemental fury against most rank 1 infantry, but otherwise gives a nice bonus.

The unmasked is looking like it might be my favorite of the rank 1 leaders. Critical blow and precision combine for what may be the heaviest hitting rank 1 leader, but I would need to do a bit of math to see if this is actually the case. The Main thing with her though is going to be learning how to get the most out of Master of Deception, especially since it appears to trigger her Inspire allowing her to drop a model before her hop. On the downside, I can't see any reason to use her training outside of an all fel warrior army.

Arkan Thesh looks like he'll be able to take nearly anything he gets pointed at, especially if he passes the will check. His inspire looks like it will allow the fel hammers to do quite a bit of heavy lifting. That being said, he looks like he'll be hard to keep alive, since he wants to be in the thick of things and the damage chart is just ok. While better than the unmasked, Arkan's training seems very corner case, and would only consider it in an all fel warrior army and possibly against hadross.

Lastly I do think there's some good synergy with the rest of the Nasier force. I like the idea of the Ashmen Hakar's training in conjunction with the inspire of either fel leader, with the maskless allowing for them to push into another target and possibly killing it with a passed will check while Arkan would allow for the hammers to potentially move up to 14" and gain extra attacks. Other than that there's the obvious ones such as the bloodchild granting strong will within 6", or the rathor granting unrelenting(1)