Making molds from existing mini\'s?
- Thread starter SterlingSound
- Start date
Glenn Harris
New member
Well in my past time with GW I got to see their collection of seized \"trophies\" from companies and individuals that they had successfully brought legal action against. I also was there for when GW brought legal action against Enigma miniatures and got permission from the Canadian government to raid their business and seize their molds. I didn\'t count them but there were a lot of molds. It\'s been a few years but I have seen dealers at cons selling copies of models thrown out or if they are really unlucky been at a con with a GW rep who took their info down and sent it off to the GW lawyers. And yes, even action taken against some poor bastards who just wanted to make a few copies for themselves, \"not to sell\". And if you do sell copies and you don\'t tell the buyers that they are pirated you are guilty of copyright infringement and possiblt fraud. If you do tell buyers that they are pirated you just incriminated yourself.
No, it does not matter whether you sell them or not.
Don\'t pirate miniatures. Or if you do do not get caught.
There is one very important thing to remember with copying miniatures. And yes, in my years since parting ways with GW I have acually been responsible for this legal paperwork. One of the things that a sculptor does is sign over the rights to reproduce a sculpture to the buying party. This is a very specific and important part of a sculpting contract. In fact some sculptors have been know to go so far as to specify what mediums they are signing over the rights to reproduce for. Or in the old days there were even times when artists would give reproduction rights to a company for a certain time, and when that time was up or the reproducer went out of business the sculptor regained their rights and could in turn sell them to a third party. If your not the one who has the right to reproduce the artist\'s work you are liable to legal action. It is that simple.
The very act of making the copies is wrong. Selling them just opens you up to more potential trouble.
Guys in the industry take this very seriously. And so far the courts have proven them right. I am no lawyer but I can confidently say that if I see people get busted repeatedly for doing something there probably is some sort of legal code against it!
Sorry if I\'m heavy handed again, I really am a nice guy!
Glenn Harris
No, it does not matter whether you sell them or not.
Don\'t pirate miniatures. Or if you do do not get caught.
There is one very important thing to remember with copying miniatures. And yes, in my years since parting ways with GW I have acually been responsible for this legal paperwork. One of the things that a sculptor does is sign over the rights to reproduce a sculpture to the buying party. This is a very specific and important part of a sculpting contract. In fact some sculptors have been know to go so far as to specify what mediums they are signing over the rights to reproduce for. Or in the old days there were even times when artists would give reproduction rights to a company for a certain time, and when that time was up or the reproducer went out of business the sculptor regained their rights and could in turn sell them to a third party. If your not the one who has the right to reproduce the artist\'s work you are liable to legal action. It is that simple.
The very act of making the copies is wrong. Selling them just opens you up to more potential trouble.
Guys in the industry take this very seriously. And so far the courts have proven them right. I am no lawyer but I can confidently say that if I see people get busted repeatedly for doing something there probably is some sort of legal code against it!
Sorry if I\'m heavy handed again, I really am a nice guy!
Glenn Harris
S
syco-pyro
Guest
actually i was reading aboot copyrights
actually i was reading aboot copy rights and they are only for a limited time and you have to contenually re-copyright things. at least thats what i gathered from it. so u might be able to copy SOME miniatures. altho GW doesnt make too much money so im shure they can only afford to get copyrights on anything but thier newest figs lol he he. just to be safe if you copy any figs dont tell n e 1.and dont try to sell them. just keep your lips shut aboot it and no one gets hurt. n e ways thats a kids pinion aboot it all.
actually i was reading aboot copy rights and they are only for a limited time and you have to contenually re-copyright things. at least thats what i gathered from it. so u might be able to copy SOME miniatures. altho GW doesnt make too much money so im shure they can only afford to get copyrights on anything but thier newest figs lol he he. just to be safe if you copy any figs dont tell n e 1.and dont try to sell them. just keep your lips shut aboot it and no one gets hurt. n e ways thats a kids pinion aboot it all.
Chrispy
New member
My personal opinion is that making copies of somethings for yourself are okay. Such as that one jewel you like on a character that cost $8. However, being an artist myself and knowing about copyright laws, I\'d be ticked if I found out someone took one of my works, copied it and started selling them.. so I guess my point is don\'t let the company screw you over too much, if that sheild costs $2 to buy but $.50 to make and you need 10 of them go ahead and make some copies for your guys and play with them. On the other hand, don\'t screw the company over, I think they\'ll notice if people started selling full balrogs for cheap on eBay... That\'s it, I\'m out! 
nadinbrzezinski
New member
Well knowing a tad about this myself, if you are caught, you are in for a world of hurt. It is not only GW that has a hard nosed attitude about anybody making illegal copies, so do most other companies. Oh and I might add, this is not only minis that they will pursue you, but also distributing fiction and other things.
Look folks, reality is that making these products takes a lot of planning and a lot of sweat, and making copies is just plain wrong. I do not care whether they are for your personal use, or not. This is a sliding scale and I know that the legal eagles and the courts, in multiple countries, have found against people who have made copies, for mostly violating copyright law.
Now the US is a signatory of the European and North American Copyright conventions, and the US also has Title 17 of the Copyright law… and though this is a civil action, this civil action will not be pleasant.
If you need those minis, either buy from the company… which I know many are not willing since they like to suck us dry as it were… but they keep selling… or buy it in the secondary market. If you are so disgusted by the practices of any company, just don’t buy the product. If enough of you do not buy, they will get the message… and imitation is not the highest form of flattery, at least insofar as the courts are concerned.
Nadin
Look folks, reality is that making these products takes a lot of planning and a lot of sweat, and making copies is just plain wrong. I do not care whether they are for your personal use, or not. This is a sliding scale and I know that the legal eagles and the courts, in multiple countries, have found against people who have made copies, for mostly violating copyright law.
Now the US is a signatory of the European and North American Copyright conventions, and the US also has Title 17 of the Copyright law… and though this is a civil action, this civil action will not be pleasant.
If you need those minis, either buy from the company… which I know many are not willing since they like to suck us dry as it were… but they keep selling… or buy it in the secondary market. If you are so disgusted by the practices of any company, just don’t buy the product. If enough of you do not buy, they will get the message… and imitation is not the highest form of flattery, at least insofar as the courts are concerned.
Nadin
Chern Ann
Only when they're green
http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/duration.html#recent
Copyrights subsist for at least 70 years, and usually much longer. I don\'t think there\'s a miniature available out there that is even close to approaching the 70 year limit. The soonest a work created after 1978 will expire is 2048. Works created after 1978 will not be eligible for renewal, but frankly, I\'m not sure if I\'m going to be around in 2060 to see any minis become public domain, and I seriously doubt I\'d care by then.
Chern Ann
Only when they're green
The whole point of the enforcement regime is that depending on which country you\'re in, it isn\'t cost effective to make duplicates for sale from a risk/reward viewpoint.
Recently, Dutch users of Kaazaa got billed for every single Dutch movie and song they downloaded because the copyright owners tracked them down and forced their ISPs to release contact details. Most of them paid up in a settlement for 50% of the value of what they downloaded whilst agreeing to delete whatever they had on their harddisks and promising they would never do it again, on pain of the settlement being revoked and the copyright owners being entitled to sue them for the full amount plus damages. They had a strong incentive to settle, because the copyright owners could have seized their computers and CDs for evidence, which would have been a disaster for most people. Whether or not copyright owners in other countries will be as aggressive remains to be seen, the US owners seem confused between protecting their PR and protecting their IP.
GW also has a reputation for being aggressive with copies when they surface.
The true lesson is that it\'s only cost effective if you never get caught. Never is a long, long time. The more you do it, the more lucky you\'re going to need to be.
Recently, Dutch users of Kaazaa got billed for every single Dutch movie and song they downloaded because the copyright owners tracked them down and forced their ISPs to release contact details. Most of them paid up in a settlement for 50% of the value of what they downloaded whilst agreeing to delete whatever they had on their harddisks and promising they would never do it again, on pain of the settlement being revoked and the copyright owners being entitled to sue them for the full amount plus damages. They had a strong incentive to settle, because the copyright owners could have seized their computers and CDs for evidence, which would have been a disaster for most people. Whether or not copyright owners in other countries will be as aggressive remains to be seen, the US owners seem confused between protecting their PR and protecting their IP.
GW also has a reputation for being aggressive with copies when they surface.
The true lesson is that it\'s only cost effective if you never get caught. Never is a long, long time. The more you do it, the more lucky you\'re going to need to be.
X
Xarthos
Guest
GW
All this makes me wonder if GW has employees patroling eBay. If they don\'t, they need to. If GW is worried about people pirating minis (as I\'m sure they are, since they are very aggressive about these things as has been mentioned) they should have a little news section or something in thier publications mentioning when people get caught. I bet that would curb it.
All this makes me wonder if GW has employees patroling eBay. If they don\'t, they need to. If GW is worried about people pirating minis (as I\'m sure they are, since they are very aggressive about these things as has been mentioned) they should have a little news section or something in thier publications mentioning when people get caught. I bet that would curb it.
Discussion sum up...as I see this the argument seems to have boiled down to two camps. Against... It\'s illegal, it\'s immoral, and you\'ll get caught. For...not sure it\'s illegal, don\'t care if it\'s immoral, and if you\'re doing it for yourself the chances of getting caught are so slim as to be nonexistant. So if you aren\'t being persuaded by the against argument there is one thing you may want to consider. Is it really cost affective? The RTV for the resin casting of my own parts is about $12 a cup. And while I\'m not familiar with the vulcanized RTV I suspect the cost will be similar. So the mold cost is the price of the original mini plus the mold material and anything you need to purchace in order to make the mold. So for a currently available figure we are talking about $16 for the mold. Now the casting material... leads fairly cheap but it doesn\'t hold detail over time. So rubidium, or one of the white metals will be the way to go. They costs more so 50-75 cents a figure is the material cost. Now compare this to just buying the things. If it\'s a currently available figure you can pick it up at any GW store they will average $3.25. But it\'s not really fair to use this cost as a comparison because these figures are available from discounters for 20-30% off. And you can still buy whole armies for 50% off from Bartertown and ebay. So the real comparison cost is like $1.75-$2.00 Or put into perspective You have to make 10-16 copies of each piece just to make the process cost affective. And this assumes that your time is of no value. If you throw that in the per piece cost just doubled and now you have to make 20-32 pieces in each mold just to break even. Now if it\'s something you can only special order from england You may be able to get away with only having to make 6 or 7 but you get the picture. Does anyone really need 30 copies of the same figure for their own army?
silverandblackattack
New member
By 2060 you can probably go to your Star Trek like replicating device and make whatever you want. Of course the Empire of the United States will have developed Psionic mind control over all world citizens and will automatically suck out your brains for any illegal activities. That is of course if the cyborgs don\'t overtake them first.lol
Cripes, you all worry to much. If you want to make copies of OOP figures for your personal use, go ahead. If you think GW has the inclination or financial resources to chase down every hobbiest who makes copies FOR HIS OWN non-commercial use, you are overestimating them. Now common sense would tell you not to enter your copies in a GW hosted event, but come on, lighten up.
Braveheart712
New member
Lets put this in perspective...
To copy or not to copy...that is the question.
I have read both sides of the arguement here and I find myself agreeing with many of the points both pro and con. I found however that this topic has become very heated so let me throw some water on the fire and calm everyone down. Here is how I see it....
There are many good reasons why someone should not copy figures, first and foremost should be the moral implications. You are depriving the sculptor, the distributor and nameless others potential profit. The gaming industry is not filled with rich executives making millions of dollars but mostly hard working individuals that depend on these meager profits for their jobs and survival. Another reason not to copy is the all too badgered legal reason. It may or may not be illegal for you to copy for \"personal use\" ( the law is not clear on this no matter what anyone here has stated, further more as an American, I know our courts have a wide range of judicial interpretation and descression even with the most crystal clear law) however we all agree that distibuting pirated copies definitely constitutes a crime. These are both very sound reasons not to but on the other side...
The reasons to copy a mini are quite simple. Many gamers here seem to think it may be cost effect to do so. ( But as pointed out by various posts it is not!) Some of the gamers here wish to have copies of OOP mini, and for this reason alone I can see their point and frustation. GW is not a good company when it comes to catering to special needs of its customers in regards to discountinued products, and for purely financial reasons ( of which I understand and do not fault them, after all they are in business to make a profit and stay afloat ) they routinely modify and update their lines as well as phase out older less popualr items to maximize production of new and even nicer ones. If a gamer does wish to copy an old out of print model for their own use, I personally see NOTHING wrong with it for several reasons because....
The person copying this OOP model is not defrauding anyone with a forged model other than themselves, nor are they chiseling in on profits that the copyright holder may gain since this item is no longer in production. But consider this before going forward that he copies you may produced will never be as good as the original due to it be a second generation piece. It is expensive to duplicate and much easier to buy the original if you can find it. There also is a danger involved because these copies are produced with molten metal which, yes fellow gamers, can cause nasty burns or fires. Toxic gases are also released especially if lead is involved. So what do you do???
Simple...
1) Copy for your own personal use if it is a figure you cannot get any other way. Do not copy figures that are in production. Use these figures in your own home with your fiends, not in tournaments unless you somehow get special permission from some GW president or God, whomever has jurisdiction over this matter.
2) Do not distribute these figures for profit or \"give\" away these figures to your \"friends\" since I can see where this may constitute illegal distribution and I could agree that you may be liable for damages and/or penalties associated with this violation.
3) Support your local gaming store and your favorite minature producer, since without your monetary support this industry will die and cease to exist, and that would force everyone here to find a new hobby. ( Perish that thought!! )
Of course that is my opinion, I could be wrong....
To copy or not to copy...that is the question.
I have read both sides of the arguement here and I find myself agreeing with many of the points both pro and con. I found however that this topic has become very heated so let me throw some water on the fire and calm everyone down. Here is how I see it....
There are many good reasons why someone should not copy figures, first and foremost should be the moral implications. You are depriving the sculptor, the distributor and nameless others potential profit. The gaming industry is not filled with rich executives making millions of dollars but mostly hard working individuals that depend on these meager profits for their jobs and survival. Another reason not to copy is the all too badgered legal reason. It may or may not be illegal for you to copy for \"personal use\" ( the law is not clear on this no matter what anyone here has stated, further more as an American, I know our courts have a wide range of judicial interpretation and descression even with the most crystal clear law) however we all agree that distibuting pirated copies definitely constitutes a crime. These are both very sound reasons not to but on the other side...
The reasons to copy a mini are quite simple. Many gamers here seem to think it may be cost effect to do so. ( But as pointed out by various posts it is not!) Some of the gamers here wish to have copies of OOP mini, and for this reason alone I can see their point and frustation. GW is not a good company when it comes to catering to special needs of its customers in regards to discountinued products, and for purely financial reasons ( of which I understand and do not fault them, after all they are in business to make a profit and stay afloat ) they routinely modify and update their lines as well as phase out older less popualr items to maximize production of new and even nicer ones. If a gamer does wish to copy an old out of print model for their own use, I personally see NOTHING wrong with it for several reasons because....
The person copying this OOP model is not defrauding anyone with a forged model other than themselves, nor are they chiseling in on profits that the copyright holder may gain since this item is no longer in production. But consider this before going forward that he copies you may produced will never be as good as the original due to it be a second generation piece. It is expensive to duplicate and much easier to buy the original if you can find it. There also is a danger involved because these copies are produced with molten metal which, yes fellow gamers, can cause nasty burns or fires. Toxic gases are also released especially if lead is involved. So what do you do???
Simple...
1) Copy for your own personal use if it is a figure you cannot get any other way. Do not copy figures that are in production. Use these figures in your own home with your fiends, not in tournaments unless you somehow get special permission from some GW president or God, whomever has jurisdiction over this matter.
2) Do not distribute these figures for profit or \"give\" away these figures to your \"friends\" since I can see where this may constitute illegal distribution and I could agree that you may be liable for damages and/or penalties associated with this violation.
3) Support your local gaming store and your favorite minature producer, since without your monetary support this industry will die and cease to exist, and that would force everyone here to find a new hobby. ( Perish that thought!! )
Of course that is my opinion, I could be wrong....
vincegamer
New member
Actually, you are using things you would otherwise have had to buy, so they can at least get you for what the minis you made \"would have cost\". Then as CA pointed out there is dilution, but I haven\'t taken Trademark law yet so I\'ll get back to you on that one.
No Such Agency
New member
Actually, I think even authentic casts can have two mold lines, if the master model is not cleaned up properly after the first casting (the \"green\" is used to make a master mold, then castings from that mold are used to make production molds). Unlikely, but I\'ve seen it.
Let me be the voice of practicality here.
Are you experianced in mold makeing.
If so then how the heck will they find out?
I would suggest that you make it out of pewter like all old citadel minis where, just so they don\'t get too nosy over how it weighs more/less than it should.
In my opinion however, they shouldn\'t be able to prosecute for a non-market item. They wouldn\'t be getting any money from it anyways right? kind of like the big to-do over the \"fluff bible\" (a compilation of warhammer FB-40k info from rouge trader and origional WFB info), the info doesn\'t apply anymore and the books it\'s derived from aren\'t even available on GW or ebay (and that\'s saying something).
Are you experianced in mold makeing.
If so then how the heck will they find out?
I would suggest that you make it out of pewter like all old citadel minis where, just so they don\'t get too nosy over how it weighs more/less than it should.
In my opinion however, they shouldn\'t be able to prosecute for a non-market item. They wouldn\'t be getting any money from it anyways right? kind of like the big to-do over the \"fluff bible\" (a compilation of warhammer FB-40k info from rouge trader and origional WFB info), the info doesn\'t apply anymore and the books it\'s derived from aren\'t even available on GW or ebay (and that\'s saying something).
