Making molds from existing mini\'s?

[jimcheney]

Making stuff

Ok, I have made quite a few molds and produced parts I need, so I can lend some experience to the topic.

About copy rights - what you do with it is the entire crux of the issue. If you are making extra beakie heads then you are ok, if you are making casts of Centurious and trying to sell them on ebay, then you are a dirty bastard for a number of reasons.

Anyway, it is entirely possible to make very decent casts. It takes a little practice and experimentation, but you can get some very acceptable results.

First of all, I used supplies available from www.micromark.com. I bought their molding and casting kits for about 60 dollars. You get two part RTV rubber, two part casting resin, and some useful accessories. There is plenty of stuff for a lot of molds and casts.

I first make a little box out of plasticard. I find it easier to suspend the master from a little rod rather than half bury it in modeling clay - but its really your choice. Pour the mold one half at a time (filling up to the middle of the master on the first pour). Before you pour the second half you cut some notches in the first half to create alignment bits. After you pour the second half, you cut some channels for the resin to flow in.

Its really trial and error - I\'ve made some molds 2 or 3 times because I found that certain parts of the mold werent filling etc.

It also helps to make a simple mold of a barrel or something for your first mold. Not only is is hard to mess up, it gives you a mold to pour extra resin into to reduce wastage. When you are making small parts there is always resin left over and making some bit for scenery or something sure beats wasting it.

If enough people want to see an article, I can put one together.

 

[Xarthos]

Stuff

Well, since a few people are posting this stuff and no one seems to mind, www.minaturemolds.com has everything you need. Jim mentioned trial and error, but if you buy the equipment from this web site instead of scratch building your boxs, ect. you can pretty much make perfect molds on the first try. They also have instructional videos, manuals, and tutorials posted on their site. Their box is very nice, and I would imagine much more conveinient and functional than using legos or plasticard. They also have RTV, release agent, melting pots, and everything else you could possibly need. After looking at Micromark, they have some excellent stuff, as well as alot of nice stuff not associated with casting, but minaturemolds is a real treasure trove of info for casting.

 

[Sturmhalo]

I posted the question of making reproductions on a limited basis for personal use on the GW message boards the other day. The few replies the question got ranged from \'go ahead a do it\' to \'don\'t do it, it\'s illegal\'! Pretty much the same vague selection of answers as found here!

It would be really useful to get the lowdown from someone with a legal background so we\'d all know exactly what the law says on this subject. Any lawyers out there?

As previously posted, the reply from a GW underling was that this practice is a breach of copyright! Maybe an answer from someone higher up the chain of command would be interesting?!

I have an Osprey modelling book which tells the reader how to make very crude one piece moulds of parts for use in scratch building. It even shows a part having a mould taken and then being cast. Surely that is in breach of copyright??? But the book is still on sale and hasn\'t been expurgated.

Back to the GW point though. I have heard of GW being very quick to threaten legal action in the past over very minor things. Such as the use of artwork on web sites without permission, and even the title of a magazine article!!! So, \'Joe modeller\' beware, GW would probably be willing to threaten even the likes of us for recasting a las gun that they no longer make.

Big Brother is watching you.

 

[Chern Ann]

Duplicating anything without permission is a breach of copyright. After you breach, you may have a number of possible defences, eg \"fair use\" which make the breach ok. So technically the GW employee is correct.

There hasn\'t been any test of \"fair use\" with regards to personal use of 3D copies that I\'m aware of. There has been pretty extensive discussion of fair use duplication when it comes to books, which differs from country to country (where I am, one chapter is fair use). As to what standards would apply to models, I have no idea.

You should consider the practical aspects though. a. You are never likely to be challenged regarding what you perceive to be fair personal use, so b. do what you feel like doing and don\'t draw attention to yourself.

Duplication for distribution (free or otherwise) is definately NOT fair use.

The book is merely providing information on how to make a duplicate, whether or not you have permission to make a duplicate is not a question it needs to concern itself with.

As for GW writing letters on relatively minor points, the law is basically that if they become aware of breaches, they must challenge them otherwise it may be seen that they are giving implicit permission for their work to be appropriated. That\'s why many sites have disclaimers that specifically state that there is no intention to challenge the copyrights or trademarks of the respective owners.

 

[sean n loren]

jimcheney we want instructions!

hey, jim (if thats ur name, assuming its not just your screen name, idk) u said if u got some people asking ud give instructions on making molds and the sort, so here i am...asking

 

[tsnake]

overreact much?

Originally posted by Dragonsreach
To take a mould of a mini who\'s design has been or is identifiable at the intelectual property of an individual or company to whom an individual has been employed to create is Unlawful.
If GW found out they could sue your ass back into the stone age.

This isn\'t the first time I\'ve read such comments from you... you\'re a bit reactionary on this topic. No?

All you have to do to look for a comparison is to look to Microsoft\'s actions against pirated Software copies. I work in IT and a council in Scotland was recently Fined £65,000 for having Unlicensed software. About 30 copies, as I recall.

Apples and Oranges. I doubt you could loose your pants over making a personal use physical copy of a 5 dollar mini [that you already [purchased], versus a 300 dollar one.

I can\'t speak for GW, but if it were my design that you had copied and I held the copyright you\'d be looking for a lawyer.

... and anyone who would go that far for an out of print mini is a shameful example.

Think in the same manner, if you\'d made something and I ripped it off wouldn\'t you be hacked off and wanrt some redress.
Actions like copying mini\'s really does tarnish the reputation of gamers/players.

No it doesn\'t. How so? People do conversions and mods all the time. They are altering the intentions of the original version. What about copying part of a whole?

from Number9
If you can be comfortable gaming with minis that you copied without permission and notification then I can\'t stop you. However I will appeal to a sense of honesty and appreciation for the sculptor\'s craft and a respect for older models that are valuable and sought after because they are rare and no longer available.

It\'s ART. I\'ve been in art classes where the students\' assignments were to paint a pre existing piece. It\'s not expected they would make a pure duplicate, but if they did, are you insinuating that the art police would show up and arrest them for doing such? Not unless they actually tried to pass it off as the original to sell it. As for making a mold of an original mini... what if someone sculpted their own, using for reference another mini? think it doesn\'t happen already with the pros? Have a closer look between different sculpters. So, then you come to the point of how the copy was made... a molded copy or a sculpted copy.

Sturmhalo quoting GW
\"If Games workshop still owns the license for that particular model and someone else is producing the models for themselves then that would be a breach of copyright.\"

They should either not retire minis or suck it up!
As Chern Ann stated, well.. as I interperet his and my deeper thoughts...
Do it. Don\'t sell them! Don\'t brag to GW (or whoever) about them. Definitely don\'t brag to Number9 or Dragonsreach (hehe) about them and then what\'s the problem? If it\'s just for personal use, for your home display, tabletop gaming or whatever, who cares?
Are they intending on spying on the homes of customers to make sure they aren\'t violating copyrights in their homes?
As for competitions... well, I do think it\'s probably cooler to actually pay for (or use paid for) minis (the primary focus ones) in competitions.
IMNSHO, when they allow or even encourage conversions... that\'s not much of a step from re-casting.
I also think they MUST state a standard line, otherwise they might be condoning clones, which wouldn\'t be a prudent statement.

I\'m not a sculpter yet, but so long as someone actually BOUGHT the mini they would then re-cast for PERSONAL use, why would I have a problem? The hassle of it would keep most people from bothering anyway. A for OOP minis... I don\'t believe people should either HAVE to pay rediculous prices for them on auctions nor do I believe they should also have to do without.

I\'m sure the laws is fuzzy if you wanna use the right arguments.

The bottom line... ALWAYS buy an original if you can. If someone wants your re-casts... give them away, but don\'t make money from them.
tsnake

 

[number9]

tsnake said:
*It\'s ART. I\'ve been in art classes where the students\' assignments were to paint a pre existing piece. It\'s not expected they would make a pure duplicate, but if they did, are you insinuating that the art police would show up and arrest them for doing such?*

---->I don\'t think we are discussing an educational experience here (and that is something which is clearly stated as acceptable duplication in copyright law fair use clauses). The topic is revolving around making an exact as possible duplicate of someone else\'s work and its legality for \"personal use\" whatever that may be. However unlikely it is that someone who makes a personal copy of a fig which is indistinguishable from the original will ever be prosecuted for their offense is irrelevant to the actual legality or honesty of the act.

tsnake said:
*Not unless they actually tried to pass it off as the original to sell it. As for making a mold of an original mini... what if someone sculpted their own, using for reference another mini? think it doesn\'t happen already with the pros? Have a closer look between different sculpters.*

-----> Again this isn\'t what is being discussed. Whatever the realities of the industry may be or whatever may go on between different sculptors of the same or different companies doesn\'t make the case of personal duplication of \"owned\" designs more or less justified. I\'m not saying it doesn\'t happen and I\'m not saying it is ALWAYS wrong, but what I am saying is that if I go into my workroom and make a mold that can close-to-perfectly duplicate as many casts of sergeant centurius as I could want, then I am engaging in a dishonest and potentially prosecutable act. Since its really only prosecutable if anyone knows, I\'m not gonna tell anyone and pass them off as the real deal, and hey I don\'t really need 20 of that model so I\'ll give the extras to some of my friends that also want them... hey I didn\'t sell them so its ok right? Now what if one of my buddies turns around and sells my near-perfect cast on e-bay for 120$, honestly claiming its the real thing since he had no idea it was a recast... it all just stinks of dishonesty doesn\'t it? Some are fine with that but I\'m not. Authenticity and integrity are important to me and to the relatively trusting and faithful collectible miniature traders/sellers out there.

 

[halon]

I scratch build my own terrain and cast it in resin. And from experience resin is extremely easy to work with and very inexpensive. Some of the things I\'ve picked up doing this are applicable to this discussion. When making the mold \"paint\" the figure half with the mold material before pouring the mold. It reduces the problem of bubbles on the surface and brings out more of the fine detail. When making the mold it\'s also helpfull to remove the bubbles in the rtv. This can be done by putting the mold in a larger air tight container and then removing the air using a vacuum. This pulls the air bubbles out of the mold. And while this kind of imperfection isn\'t always a problem on smaller pieces it does occur on larger pieces with some frequency. Finally I use a pressurized paint canister to help force the resin into the small crevices. They cost about $60 and I use my airbrush compressor to fill it with about 4psi. The principle would be the same for working in metals and it might help get a larger yield on fine detail parts.

 

[Saitoh_Hajime]

So really if you take say, Lelith Hesparix or whatever her name is, and make at least a minor conversion you can then make duplicates of that converted miniature?

 

[Chern Ann]

Originally posted by Saitoh_Hajime
So really if you take say, Lelith Hesparix or whatever her name is, and make at least a minor conversion you can then make duplicates of that converted miniature?

No, that\'s definately not ok. To repeat, it is already breach of copyright whenever you make a duplicate; there may be a fair use defense depending on what you duplicate for.

If you make a minor change to a figure and duplicate it, you are creating a derivative work. That is definately a breach of copyright if you do it without permission; I\'ve heard Warzone got into big trouble for sculpting over GW figures and trying to pass them off as original sculpts.

 

[Saitoh_Hajime]

What about a serious conversion made out of lots of bitz?

 

[Chern Ann]

Still no probably. Even if you sculpted everything yourself, if you did a riff on a trademarked item like a Space Marine, that would be a trademark infringement (a completely different class of protections altogether)

 

[Saitoh_Hajime]

Well I look at this the same way I do all other medium (tapes, movies, music, etc). If I can find an original for sale that isn\'t x10 normal price I will buy it. If I can\'t, then a copy is just as good.
If a company doesn\'t make a miniature any more, they I don\'t see how they can complain if someone makes copies of something unavailable.

 

[spaceelvesrock]

on the bitz

suppose i wanted to make a feature film and really liked the shooting spree scene in the matrix, do you think warner brothers would just let me take that and put it in my movie without any legal fuss about copyright ownership even though i only wanted to use a piece of their intellectual property? bitz work the same way, i should think

 

[Chern Ann]

Depends on what you\'re making the copy for. If you make it for yourself, they\'ll never know. If you\'re trying to sell or distribute it, yes they can complain. They can say:

1. We intended to re-release it at some undetermined point in the future.
2. You owe us royalties for using our work in your derivative work.
3. You owe us damages for diluting our trademark by implying that we give permission to use our intellectual property.

That\'s the whole point of our copyright framework. You never know, at some point in the future someone might pay big $ for GW\'s archive and a license to make the minis. You do not want to be in the position where you have to pay damages for breach especially since the value of GW\'s IP is most likely going to be valued by GW itself.

 

[number9]

-------------------------------------------
Well I look at this the same way I do all other medium (tapes, movies, music, etc). If I can find an original for sale that isn\'t x10 normal price I will buy it. If I can\'t, then a copy is just as good.
-------------------------------------------

--->How you see it is irrelevant to how law is applied. And a copy isn\'t as good as the real thing... ever. Buying a single figure does not entitle a person to make copies of it to do with as they please... ever. Digital, video, and audio data are different mediums and are governed by separate clauses under copyright protection. Designs, trademarks, and 3D sculptures are governed by yet another set of legal protection and are not in the same class as tapes and movies and MP3s. Ethically, if it is more comfortable for you to group them as similar forms of duplication, that is one thing, but don\'t expect the law to agree.

--------------------------------------
If a company doesn\'t make a miniature any more, they I don\'t see how they can complain if someone makes copies of something unavailable.
--------------------------------------

----->Copyright can exist long after a product has ceased being produced. It is entirely likely that a miniature made in the 50s is no longer protected by copyright, but I find it very likely that many miniatures from the 80s onward are still under copyright protection regardless of whether they are still being cast or not for public purchase.

 

[Sturmhalo]

As the guy from GW told me, if they still own the license then any reproduction would be a breach of copyright! I guess you\'d have to buy the license to reproduce a particular figure legally! Not cheap for one copy of a space marine or whatever.

 

[jimcheney]

Ok, I\'ll do the article sometime over the xmas holiday. First I need to come up with something kosher to cast - you wont find me trolling (no pun intended) for trouble by showing how to re-cast copyrighted material here.

 

[Saitoh_Hajime]

I guess it really boils down to \"if you\'re going to copy figures, don\'t tell anyone\"? Really the two GW armies I\'m building (dark elves and Sisters of Battle) are a bit much to copy in my view since the new dark elves have lots of spikey bitz, and I have enough sisters. I have a couple old miniatures that I don\'t even know what company made them in the first place that I plan to copy for a couple units in my Clan War army.

 

[Badaab]

I\'ve done some limited casting of minis in metal, although they came out pretty crappy, since I used a lost wax method for casting my own sculpts, and wax is pretty hard to work with. One of the recent issues of Fine Scale Modeller goes into casting in resin, and has some step-by-step instructions and and diagrams that are pretty helpful. I\'d suggest checking that out... (although they aren\'t casting Space Marines or anything, its still useful).

Joe