Making molds from existing mini\'s?

[SterlingSound]

I have some vintage Citadel Mini\'s (GW for those who are younger) I\'m wondering if it would be bad form to create molds from these mini\'s, which are now \'no-longer-in-production\' . I understand the legal implications, but lets say that I don\'t sell them, and I use them for my own purposes, i.e. building my army. Now let\'s say that I show up at a GW tournament with an army built up of these mini\'s - would it be grounds for disqualification - or any other problems? Am I being too concerned?

-SterlingSound

p.s. If you are wondering about which mini\'s I am speaking of, check out my gallery of mostly old, Citadel mini\'s at:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/browse.php?submitter=SterlingSound

 

[No Such Agency]

I imagine that if the tournament organizers knew your army was made up of \"pirated\" (and I use the term without prejudice here) figures you wouldn\'t be allowed to field it. That said, I\'m not familiar with GW tournaments so maybe really old figs wouldn\'t be kosher anyway? I dunno. At any rate, I suspect that \"secondary\" molds would produce pretty crappy figs anyway. From a purely technical standpoint, if you try this, let us all know how well they turn out

 

[wightzombie]

from a big manufacter like that it seems less bad. for personal use of old minis further seems less bad. as long as you arent taking money from gw it doesnt seem like a huge issue and as long as no one is keyed in to it at a tourney it shoudlnt be a prob. on one hand its good to keep the history of minis alive, on the other hand gw just moved on so i dont see a huge prob.

gamers had this problem with video game companies awhile back when emulation of every video game system from the past 20 years was made with roms of the games being distributed. the gamers thought it was fine because they wanted to retain thier past and dwell in what they deemed was very fun on what by companies was considered a dead product from the past. companies on the other hand went out and shutdown site after site and sent email after email getting thier roms off the net. after a while they pretty much gave up. personally if its a old product that the company doesnt see fit to touch because it would require a entire rehaul of said product to make it economically viable then i dont see the harm in securing copies for self or friends. however this is not the point of view from a manufacter/owner or sculptor so......yeah.

 

[Coldsteel]

If they could tell you casted the figures, yes they (GW) would probably disqualify you. Also, they WOULD see that as \'losing money\' because instead of buying your minis from them, you\'re duplicating their minis and they\'renot profiting from it.

 

[Dragonsreach]

OUCH ever heard of copyright!

To take a mould of a mini who\'s design has been or is identifiable at the intelectual property of an individual or company to whom an individual has been employed to create is Unlawful.
If GW found out they could sue your ass back into the stone age.

All you have to do to look for a comparison is to look to Microsoft\'s actions against pirated Software copies. I work in IT and a council in Scotland was recently Fined £65,000 for having Unlicensed software. About 30 copies, as I recall.

I can\'t speak for GW, but if it were my design that you had copied and I held the copyright you\'d be looking for a lawyer.
Think in the same manner, if you\'d made something and I ripped it off wouldn\'t you be hacked off and wanrt some redress.
Actions like copying mini\'s really does tarnish the reputation of gamers/players.

If you have a problem with GW\'s prices I understand, I find them unacceptable sometimes. But that is an issue we should take up with them directly, but just to copy like that is Theft.

Not intended as a rant, but as advise.

Regards

 

[Fahdpar23]

molds

For arguments sake, suppose one was making castings of minis, vintage or otherwise, for the express purpose of conversions? Personally, i\'d hate to cut up a hard to find mini just because i\'d like part of it for a conversion. Also, would it be possible to secure permission from the manufacturer to make molds of their minis? Probably not, at least without some sort of license, but might be worth a shot.

 

[Errex]

Do as you please...

Unless the casted copies are so poorly made that it is obvious they are not \"kosher\", I doubt ANYONE at a tournament would realize what they are. That is, unless you win the tournament, and during the interview for White Dwarf you slip and spill the beans...lol

 

[Sturmhalo]

I\'ve been thinking along similar lines recently! I have a number of old late 80\'s figures and it would be nice to finish units that never quite got off the ground.

From a quality point of view, I believe it is possible to reproduce a casting almost perfectly as long as you master the skill of creating the mold and hand casting the figure (I\'m not paying £500+ for a \'Centricast\' machine!).

As far as tournaments go, as long as your figures looked the part they\'d pass. However I do believe that old figures are frowned upon these days and not allowed in tournaments! At least that\'s what I read on the net somewhere.

Legally speaking, I\'m not sure what the pitfalls are. I can\'t see GW taking action against someone reproducing models that are no longer making them any money, which are for your own personal use! A bit like copying music or software. If it\'s purely for your own use and you\'re not making money out of it I don\'t think there is a problem. Don\'t qoute me though. However, if you can reproduce exact copies and they are only for your own use, once they\'re covered in paint who\'s to know?!

Even though I would consider reproducing OOP models purely for my own use, I would frown upon anyone reproducing currently available models! Even for your own use. If it\'s in production, buy it. Don\'t rip off hard working manufacturers, even if they are GW!

 

[SterlingSound]

not my intent

An earllier post suggested that I would \'get my ass sued\' - but I think that replier missed my intent. I DO NOT intend to sell these. (I haven\'t even made a mold of anything, ever - yet.) But these mini\'s I am referring to came out in the late 80\'s early 90\'s - made by Citadel and were then discontinued. You cannot even order them in the archive section of GW\'s online store. It would be interesting to hear GW\'s opinion on this, and I may just send the thread to them to discuss. I am not out to rip them off (quite the contrary, I\'ve spent oodles and oodles with them over the past 10 or so years - and probably even more recently!!!) I would just like to finish out a few units that, as one poster mentioned, would help to finish out those units or armies never quite finished. Personally, I wouldn\'t mind seeing some of the older mini\'s fielded at a tournament, as I think some of the older mini\'s are better than the new! Wightzombie\'s comments on one of my mini\'s echoed this sentiment in regards to Empire figs: \"to tell u the truth this is what i think GW\'s empire army should look like instead of some frilly lacey army thats just waiting to get bitch slapped from thier fancy silks. thx for the post of this one, it elightens me to think the empire didnt always look like a aristrocratic buffet.\"

http://www.coolminiornot.com/index.php?id=13165

Don\'t get me wrong, I do love GW mini\'s - probably my fav, although I haven\'t purchased or painted much else. I would like to check out Rackscan, but the website is not yet active.... but I\'ll leave that for another topic. THanks for the replies everyone, I look forward to more!

-SterlingSound

 

[shris]

getting back to copyrights

The copyright laws in the US are pretty clear--making a copy for reasonable personal use is OK, making for sale isn\'t. But I don\'t think you can just make a verbatim copy of the whole thing (except in the case of backups of software or music, etc.). For example, with publications, you can make a copy of a percentage of the total, but not the whole thing. I think the limit is like 10 or 20%, it\'s been a while. So while that would seem to say you could copy the head for your own use in a conversion, you couldn\'t copy the entire thing.

However, I do believe in consulting the actual text and a copyright lawyer before taking any action, because it may be that in this case, your intent to use it only for yourself might not matter at all. In many parts of the law, intent doesn\'t matter, only action. It would be a good idea to 1) talk to GW about getting old stuff again and/or 2) talk to a copyright lawyer about the legality of it, since you might take the stuff into public places and show it off.

It could be that GW wouldn\'t mind you reproducing something in small quantities for your own use. Or they might be able to fix you up with a couple they had in the vault. Or they could slap you with a cease and desist before you\'d lifted a finger. Best to know before stepping in a stinky pile.

 

[Saitoh_Hajime]

copies

This is a sticky one. Since it *is* legal to make copies of video/audio media or computer programs for personal backp, I don\'t know why you couldn\'t make a copy of a miniature for personal use. Since they don\'t make it any more, I don\'t know why they would complain unless you were selling them.

 

[number9]

this topic comes up all the time around the hobby-net and the consensus in the end usually is: \"casting someone else\'s sculpt (for any purpose) without their permission or notification is dishonest at best and potentially illegal based on what the duplicate is being used for\".

Opinions vary about what constitutes fair personal use and people toss up digital rights and VHS copying and photocopying etc... Bottom line; there was obviously a little voice in the back of your head insinuating that what you were proposing to do was somehow wrong... otherwise I don\'t feel you would have bothered to ask this forum its opinion on this matter. If you make good copies, odds are no one is gonna know the difference unless you tell them, ergo no consequences... largely a victimless crime... stick it to the big companies... whatever...

If you can be comfortable gaming with minis that you copied without permission and notification then I can\'t stop you. However I will appeal to a sense of honesty and appreciation for the sculptor\'s craft and a respect for older models that are valuable and sought after because they are rare and no longer available. Regardless of what you say about not selling cast figures... if you make really good castings how will you be able to tell which ones are the real ones after they are painted? How will anyone else? With the prices commanded by certain limited edition and rare figures on e-bay these days... I feel its only a matter of time before \"counterfeit\" figures intentioned only for personal use find their way into that market (in fact its probably already occuring to a greater extent than some of us would like to believe).

recasting is dishonest and cheapens the overall value of the miniatures we strive to collect and lavish hours of work upon... at best.

just my opinion. no one get upset now.

 

[Thri-Keen Priest]

Personal Use

I can hardly imagine a more apt use of the term \"personal use.\" In my mind, the *only* issue is whether or not the individual is *selling* these illegit copies. Giving them away might be somewhat sticky as well, but personal use is cut and dried.

To put this in another light, if I buy a painting and choose to color-copy it to wallpaper my house, that\'s *my* business.

Not that I\'ve ever made a mold, from a model or anything else. I just feel that commercial interests have *enough* of a stranglehold on our lives as it stands.

So go ahead, copy your old minis. Enjoy them. They belong to you to do with as you please. You bought them and as long as you don\'t sell copies of them, you\'re in the clear, as far as I\'m concerned.

TKP


[The previous announcement was a statement of opinion by an advocate of personal freedoms with no form of legal degree and does not necessarily reflect the attitudes or opinions of CoolMiniOrNot.com]

 

[Natanael]

To Heck with all this legality

I want to know HOW you cast an existing mini... I have ideas, but if someone already has a pretty smooth process for it, I would love to know!

 

[wizard_of_the_strom]

I was thinking about making mold of scratch build models a long time ago for bases and scenery. But I had no idea how to make those molds. Could some one explain to me how to make them with relatively cheap materials?

 

[Sturmhalo]

Here\'s how to make a mould and hand cast a mini!

There\'s a company in the UK called Tiranti\'s and they supply all sorts of sculpting materials and tools, some of which is useful to the modeller. They have a number of booklets detailling how to make moulds and casts of models and parts. I must stress that these booklets and all the materials are not aimed at counterfeiters! Just thought I\'d better mention it as there\'s always one!

Anyway, from what I\'ve read, here are the bare basics:

The mould. Cold cure silicone rubber is used to make the mould. There are a number of different types available all with slightly different properties depending on the purpose they\'re intended for. Basically this stuff will cure (set) under normal room temperature. No vulcanising!

Make a box to cast the mould in. Lego or similar seems quite popular. Use a base piece and build up a suitable box like structure. Then using modelling clay (non hardening type) you mask off half of your figure. Basically fill the bottom of the box with clay and press the figure into it. Also add a few studs that stand proud of the clay as these will create your means of registering the two halves of your mould when you come to casting! Mix up your silicone and pour it over the partially masked off figure, filling the box.

Once cured, removed the lego bricks and take out the silicone and clay lump. Remove the clay and clean up the figure (still keeping it in the silicone half). Rebuild the box and put the silicone and figure back in but silicone side down. Spray with some stuff to stop the next lot of silicone sticking to the half already cured, and then pour in more silicone. Voila, a two piece mould!

Next, casting in metal. Cut air vents in the mould to allow the metal to be drawn into all the extremities of the mould.

There are a few different types of metal available: pewter and various tin/lead alloys all with slightly different properties. If hand casting it appears that a metal with a relatively low melting point is best. Heat the metal in a ladle over a gas flame until it melts. Then pour it into your well clamped together mould and hope for the best! Once cooled you\'ve got your figure.

I\'ve never done this myself, but it seems relatively straight forward from the booklets I\'ve read. It is a bit more complex than I make out here though, and does require rather more work than is perhaps evident from my garbled ranting.

 

[Xarthos]

casting

I have no doubt that there are many counterfeits on Ebay. It is extremely easy to make perfect copies, at a minimal expense. I don\'t sell minis or anything else on Ebay, but I have experimented in mold making OOP minis and they turn out so well, that I could not tell which was the original and which were copies(I had quit minis for awhile and had the original in a box with copies). I finally found the original because it had small traces of modeling clay in some of the crevices (part of the process). It costs about $30 U.S. for four molds that will produce two minis up to around 30mm (40K minis for instance), and a one time investment of $60 for equipment. The molds have lasted three years without decaying and have the potential to produce hundreds of castings before they wear out. Sturmhalo, it is actually easier than you made out, its quite amazing how simple perfect copies can be made. There is a company in the U.S. that markets everything needed, including instructional videos and booklets. I won\'t post instructoins or a URL in case its not found acceptable by the owners of this site (the company is very reputable, and is actually a brick and mortar attraction that is sort of like an art center for minis). If they say its ok and folks want the URL I\'ll post it.

 

[Sturmhalo]

I\'m sure there are counterfeit figures on Ebay as well! I bought some 80\'s space marines a while back, and some of them were cast in a very white metal with slight traces of what I first thought was thin white paint in the detail, but it could have been graphite powder or talc! Still, once they\'re painted no one will know and I don\'t really care as they\'re as good as the other models I have (and I didn\'t pay over the odds for them!).

 

[Xarthos]

talc

Yeah, sounds like they used too much talc. Graphite is better (its black, so it couldn\'t have been graphite) as it leaves no trace on the mini. If you follow Sturm\'s instructions, don\'t forget the release agent on the mold when you do the second half, common mistake. I wrongly stated to put it on the mini in my first version of this post, thats wrong. Sorry, its been quite awhile since I made molds

 

[Sturmhalo]

GW Speaks!

Well kinda. I e-mailed GW on the subject of reproductions and one of their \'mail order trolls\' (Yeah, I know...) came back with this reply:

\"If Games workshop still owns the license for that particular model and someone else is producing the models for themselves then that would be a breach of copyright.\"

An exact quote, except I corrected all the stupid typo\'s! Just in case the guy\'s reading this (doubtfully), model is spelt M.O.D.E.L. There is no \'A\' in model! That would be completely different word. And there is no \'W\' in copyright either! :flame:

Sorry... breathe out and relax....

So, anyone wanting to reproduce anything, watch your backs and don\'t let on to anyone. Especially GW. They have a history of being heavy handed with people who stray from their ideals. Or so I\'m led to believe!