A peculiarity about mini painting

DennisMech

New member
Have you ever considered that (for most of us) we\'re painting someone else\'s art? It\'s like if the Mona Lisa was done in a coloring book, but to very high quality. Will mini painting never become recognized as a real art form that would be displayed in museams because of this? Will it always be recognized just as a consumer product that\'s needed to play some game. Even with converting you arnt fundamentaly changing much.

what do you all think?
 

farseerlum

New member
the only widely accepted form of art that i can think of on a similar scale (size) is jewellry and faberge eggs.

both require a fair amont of dollars for the wow factor.

most arty types woudn\'t call this an expressive art form and therfore won\'t ever be that popular.

but as far as technical/creative arts go it is getting there. art being in the eye of the beholder. we need more eyes!
truly there aren\'t that many examples of exceptional miniatures around. the standard is about the same as my sisters paintingings ie. average
 

wightzombie

New member
while i dont see it as a major \"art\" i do see it as such a difficult art in its own right that can be so amaizing you have to cough up props on some level period especially once you see a killer mini in person. if artists are wowed when they see it even though you didnt sculpt it your still going to knock them dead and hundreds of years from now they will wonder how the huge fisted human race could ever paint something so small and with such detail without there haley bots.
 

Errex

New member
Who cares?

Originally posted by DennisMech
Have you ever considered that (for most of us) we\'re painting someone else\'s art? It\'s like if the Mona Lisa was done in a coloring book, but to very high quality. Will mini painting never become recognized as a real art form that would be displayed in museams because of this? Will it always be recognized just as a consumer product that\'s needed to play some game. Even with converting you arnt fundamentaly changing much.

what do you all think?

I do this cuz my therapist told me to...:rolleyes:
 

supervike

Super Moderator
interesting take...

Of course, it really depends on how you define \'real art\'.

I think more than anything miniatures are possibly not recognized as \'real art\' because of the subject matter and application. Most of the folks here can appreciate them and understand the complexities and talent it takes to be accomplished. But, \'normal folks\' will still see them as fancy painted toy soldiers for \'one of those dungeons and dragons\' games.

But are we just painting fancy coloring books? Well, obviously not, but that is an interesting viewpoint.
 

finn17

New member
Alternatively....

I suspect we are in at the birth of a whole new pastime. Wargaming has been around a long time, but the fantasy side of things ala D & D has only been around since the 70s or so. At first the \'game\' was the most important feature and the miniatures themselves probably a bit of a novelty, after all you could play just as well with card counters or tokens.

The early sculpts were pretty basic because after all, they were just glorified tokens. It is really only recently, as sculpts have improved, that we are seeing a whole new group of hobbyists emerging, people whose main interest is painting miniatures and who either do not play or play only rarely. This is probably why you see so much argument around the definition of \'tabletop quality\'. Judging by the success of CMON and the emergence of companies like Rackham I feel that this group will steadily grow.

Perhaps also, for the first time, this aspect of the hobby has equal appeal to both sexes and you only have to look at this site to see how many and how successful female painters there are. I think in the past it took a very special type of woman to brave the delights of a Games Workshop, as Otter\'s amusing article shows.

http://www.coolminiornot.com/go.php?go=articlephp&aid=135&orderby=date&levels=99

One clear indicator of the growing appreciation of this art is the prices that well painted minis now fetch on eBay. A couple of years ago, unless you were a \'big name\' selling on eBay was tantamount to giving your stuff away. Looking at the auctions now, that situation is clearly changing for the better.
 

wightzombie

New member
the more i think about it i equate it to a team. for instance comic books have a penciler inker and colorist. now if you look at a inked book its decent. if you look at a colored book, its off the hook. your a team adding to the impact. something is made at a base level with the expectancy to be finished. in a way people who paint minis for the \"art\" are the end key in a non payed artistic position. unless you get pay\'d then kudos! so i dont really view it as editing or color keying someone elses art, i view it as finishing the art which was intended wether its for a game or not.
 

Dedwrekka

New member
i view it as finishing the art which was intended wether its for a game or not.

Very deep. Kind of like picking up leonardo\'s sketchbooks and finishing where he left off.

Only hopefully the mini doesn\'t crumble when you paint it and hopfully you don\'t get arested and thrown in a maximum security prison for it.:D
 

Flashman14

New member
I\'m hesitant to really call it an \"art\" in the fine sense of the word.

But if you sculpted the thing yourself and painted it I still can\'t lump it in with Beethoven, Michaelangelo, F. L. Wright or Picasso somehow.

I think what they provide and what we do are two different things - for them art is more concerned with emotion, aesthetics and the interpretation of the viewer. It sends a message other than decoration.

Our \"art\" however is more functional - akin to fence painting or doing your walls up with a sponge.

crazy? mebbe . . I\'m open to persuasion . . .
 

finn17

New member
I agree with your basic premise but...

Originally posted by Flashman14
Our \"art\" however is more functional - akin to fence painting or doing your walls up with a sponge.

crazy? mebbe . . I\'m open to persuasion . . .
Only when someone paints their fence SENMM will I subscribe to that view of mini painting...:D
 
V

Vidja

Guest
You\'ll probably think I\'m too cynical, but... if you paint a mini and give it to a friend for his birthday, then yours is an hobby. If you sell it for 15 bucks, then it\'s a craft. If you make 500 $ out of it, then it\'s art. :p

There\'s no univocal way to tell what is art and what is not, especially since art has nothing to do with realism nowadays... if a slashed canvas is art, why not a mini? I wouldn\'t care if the sculpt is somebody else\'s work; the ancient painters had pupils who painted the boring stuff on their masterpieces, too (and besides, there\'s scratch-built minis, uh? Those are sculpted and painted by the same person)... the reason why we\'ll not see minis in museums any time soon is not because they\'re sculpted by other people (maybe on a third guy\'s concept drawing, that was perharps inspired by a fourth\'s novel... and so on!), but because they\'re still seen as children\'s toys.
But there IS hope, you know... Japanese temari originated as children\'s toys too, and today they\'re a highly respected art form in Japan. It took them centuries, though... :eek:
 

Flashman14

New member
hmmm . . . I\'m resistant to the schoolthat says that that everything is Art if you look at it properly. To me art loses all meaning when it\'s opened up that freely. A critical piece of what constitutes Art is the artist\'s intention to evoke something other than funtionality. It\'s to communicate an idea in a way other than just saying the idea outright.

I don\'t know how our efforts do that - sure we use artistic tools, and skills - or skills used by artists but I\'m still not convinced we generate pure art.

And a torn canvas only has meaning when it\'s up alongside other paintings - then it makes a statement - leaning against a wall of your garage doesn\'t make it art. Know what I mean . . .?

The context in which the work is presented is important in all this.

As for being the sculptor as well - Steve Buddle sets a good example as the perfect sculptor and painter of his own sculpts yet those aren\'t Art in and of themselves while Haley\'s, Bobby Wong\'s, or Karamaru\'s are not . . (or Chrispy\'s heh)

I can\'t seem to put my finger on the difference though - but I bet it wouldn\'t appreciate it if I did . . lol
 

finn17

New member
Art schmart!

I think for a long time we have all been led up the garden path. We are all told by the \'experts\' what is art and what is not art.

To be blunt however, a lot of what constitutes \'high art\' I wouldn\' let through my front door. Sunflowers, pickled sheep, scratchy old paintings done by dead people. B*ll*cks to all that as far as I am concerned.

I would happily drop the term art, because I don\'t like the smell that the term carries with it.

I think that what (poor) efforts I carry out would be called \'craft\', and I would personally find that a more apposite term than \'art\'.:D
 

Otter

New member
Finn, you are a man after my own heart! I have always considered myself a \"craftsman\" (with boobs). The preferences found within what qualifies as art are so fleeting, but something well-crafted almost transcends time. Some of the classic \"artists\" (e.g.: Da Vinci, Rodin, even the architect Frank Lloyd Wright) I\'d even classify as craftsmen due to the timeless quality of execution found in their work.

- Otter
\"Never send a ferret to do a weasel\'s work.\"

P.S.: This same logic always gets me into the argument with people who buy on the cheap and call me a fool for getting the more expensive product with the good warantee. What is going on with a society that is so short-sighted that they would rather buy a car every three years over a car every ten?
 

Impernouncable

New member
Well, I\'ve got a degree in art history, let me tell you what I think about it.

I am afraid that a painter of toy soldiers, no matter how good, is not an artist per se. They may be a highly skilled crafts-person, but not an artist. However, the skills that one develops in the process of achieving a high level of detail and sophistication on thier models may be turned to the creation of original works.

In other words, if you want to be recognized as an artist, and maybe even make some cash at it, paint something original. I suggest the following process.
On paper sketch out a dozen or so ideas. Any subject goes. Anything at all from abstract to photorealistic portraites. Get a piece of brass sheet cut down to your desired size. Believe it or not a couple inches square is a perfectly fine size, under ten square is considered a miniature (art not toy soldiers). Art doesn\'t need to be big. I recommend brass for a couple reasons, it is a very traditional surface used for small paintings, we all have experience painting on metal, and water medium like acrylic paint won\'t warp it. Prime it just like you would any other miniature. Pick one of the sketches and with a blue erasable pencil draw it on your surface. Paint it like you would anything else. You\'re going to need to adapt your techniques to a flat surface, but that won\'t be too much of a challenge if you\'re as good at this as you think you are. Then all you really need to do is read a couple books on selling your art and follow up with what you learn there.

You might accidentally get famous like these miniaturists. :)
There are even juried art shows dedicated to miniatures, like La Petite, where you can win cash! Not a sword, hammer, or axe. Actual cash money. Here is a list of Miniature Art Societies if you are interested in learning more.
 

finn17

New member
I think I am in love...

Originally posted by Otter
Finn, you are a man after my own heart! I have always considered myself a \"craftsman\" (with boobs).
I think I am going to have to go for a lie down....:innocent:
 

finn17

New member
Impernouncable...don\'t get me wrong, but...

I think I must qualify as an \'art vandal\' but what really gets my goat is the rules and expectations that are enforced.

The recommendations in your (excellent) post are full of criteria which suggest that, \"this is art because it meets these conditions, this is not art because it doesn\'t\" frankly that makes my blood boil.

There are cars I consider to be works of art, motorbikes, dogs, plants etc....

As I said, I am obviously an art barbarian, but you wont find me reaching for a bit of 2\" by 2\" brass in the immediate future.

All said in the spirit of positive debate, and with respect to your viewpoints..:innocent:
 
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