Unpainted submissions.

frenchkid

New member
how can painting be an art and conversion not be one. You have to do the same thing: come up with ideas that will make you\'re mini cool (or not :p). Same has with painting. And why would you give low grade to the conversion if you think it\'s good? The guy who posted the mini asked you to judge the conversion he did. When people say a sculpture from Michaelangelo, Donatello, DaVinci, or Bernini are good they\'re looking at the sculpture, if people where to judge Michaelangelo, Donatello, DaVinci or Bernini from a painting point of view than they\'d be saying they suck ( wich is definetly not the case). So next time you see a conversion, give it marks based on the conversion because the fact that it is painted or not does not matter it is a conversion you\'re looking at. ( Am I repeating my self ?)

vincegamer said: If you get a 10 for a sculpt that means you can only make it worse by painting it.

I say :D : No, because the 10 you just gave was based on the conversion. And the grade you\'ll give to the finnal mini will be based on conversion + painting. You\'re not judging the same thing.
 

Panza

New member
How many modellers do you know who attach a bigger sword to a figure because they think it looks more artistically correct. You guys seem to be confusing \'Cool\' and \'Artistic\'.

Mini Art, in my (humble) opinion, is the replication of reality trough the application of talent and technique. We\'re trying to give tiny bits of metal and plastic the appearance of life aren\'t we? You might think that the minis converted by prophet look cool, but Haley\'s painting is art. Reality in miniature.

Now I agree that some conversions are very cool, but have you ever seen one that you could say was art?

Scratchbuilt greens? Take a look at the work of SJB. The replication of reality trough the aplication of talent and technique, even if that reality is based within the fantasy constraints we apply to our hobby.

If you do away with our reality you might just as well say, \'Hey, I know elves are meant to be agile and lightly armoured, but what the hey, lets give him a battle cannon, six tentacles, four heads and on-suite facilities. Cool conversion? Maybe, art? Nope. But if that figure is then brought to life with a superb paintjob, the textures of the skin as elf flesh meets tentacle subtly applied, and the taps on the sink rendered realistically, hey, that paintjob is art!

...and I don\'t mean to be sensitive or anything, but Frenchkid, when you said \'...so next time you see a conversion, give it marks based on the conversion...\', I give the marks I want to give based on my personal criteria, not on what you think I should give. Democracy means I can do what I want to do. Keep repeating that. :moon:
 

SkyDancer

New member
I would tend to agree with those who say the conversion itself is a skill. It\'s like flint tool making. It\'s a craft. Art implies a generous amount of expression and creativity, which is why to me the painting end is art.

That\'s not to say that conversion can\'t be artistic---if there\'s an obvious attempt to be expressive, to generate emotional responses, to say something that couldn\'t be said by the miniature before---then it\'s art. If that ain\'t there, it\'s craft.

That goes for painting, too. I\'ve seen a lot of miniatures on this site that were clearly not art, but craft. And a fair number that were neither, but hey, it is coolminiORNOT, after all.


SkyDancer
 

Pellimore

New member
This is crazy

Panza, I believe that its people like you who ruin this site. By giving a low score you prevent the main purpose of feedback and comments to be fulfilled. What do we learn when you click \"2\" on a green?

More than likely, alls that person is looking for is a few comments, a few ways to improve the model, before they prime it and no longer can. I can fully understand giving a sculpt a low score, but at least comment so that the artist (oh wait, you don\'t think its art yet) knows why a sculpt is getting a low score, not because its bad, but because its a sculpt. Thats just plain out discrimination against sculpters. And, yes, you have the rights to do this, its all your choice, but just because you have the right to do something doesn\'t make it a good call. This reflects your whole democracy thing (having to refer to government to defend a mini discussion, thats sad).

So, do what you want, click a \"1\" on every single sculpt on the site, and see what your accomplishments amount to. Nothing more than a discouraged sculpter, who can no longer call himself an artist (thanks your wonderful explanation), that has no clue why his mini is \"bad\" in the eyes of your opinion.

Have fun,
-Pellimore
 

Pellimore

New member
Oh, I forgot

On a positive note, I think Atacam serves as the perfect example of how a green, through feedback and comments, can become a better mini. Not only is it a better mini now, but it allows it to be a better mini when painted.

The finished result always depends on the foundations on which is was built. By encouraging an artist through the steps of conversian and sculpting, we broaden what they can accomplish in the end. Its not so much a question of \"why\" give green a low score, but \"what\" do you accomplish and what does the artist accomplish as a result of that score?

Have fun,
-Pellimore
 

Panza

New member
Try reading my posts.

I\'m not down on greens, just unpainted conversions, and i\'m more likely to hit the skip button than I am to give them a 1 or 2.

Also, you do seem to be confused as to what is a \'green\' and what is a conversion.

...and as for people like me ruining this site by giving low scores....? I reiterate...

I GIVE MODELS THE SCORE THAT I BELIEVE THEY SHOULD HAVE, and will continue to do so. Clear enough?
 

Pellimore

New member
Panza, I wasn\'t confused about the difference between greens and conversians. I merely used them interchangably under the overall heading of \"sculpting,\" as you so nicely did when calling it a mere skill and not art.

Also, I never argued the fact that you scored according to what you want to score, we all know that your gonna score however you want to (the democracy thing you brought up). I argued that you scoring according to how you wanted to score did no good for the CMON community.

Have fun!
-Pellimore
 

Rachel

New member
(bit long really)

More opinion...

I rather like seeing unpainted conversions - as much as I like seeing nice paintjobs :) . I don\'t think that they\'re inappropriate for this site - pretty much anything at a finished \'stage\' is fine by me. Not so keen on WIP\'s from a purely subjective viewpoint, however this site has developed to be much more than a mere gallery of finished stuff to be a kind of community for the mini side of the hobby, and I think that it\'s valuable to have WIPs both for the viewer and the poster.

Although the poster should realise that there\'ll be the occasional (or should that be frequent?) person who\'ll miss the \'wip, please comment on x\' message at the bottom and give it a 2 for being unfinished crud. Which I\'ve done more than once :rolleyes:

On the \'conversion=skill, painting=art\' - I quite disagree. Partly because I hate the use of the category \'art\' and think it\'s a meaningless word these days (too subjective, unfalsifiable, invalid - if you can\'t say it\'s not then you can\'t say it is).

I don\'t think it takes any less \'artistry\' to add value to a model by making it unique, your own, by essentially creating something new from existing materials than to give it character with well-executed painting techniques. Believe me, greenstuff is just as tough to get the hang of as layering. In fact, I find it much easier to pick up painting techniques than sculpting.

I recently made a model using extensive conversion work. Before I even applied the undercoat he had personality, an implied background/history, I\'d adjusted the proportions and made a graceless model quite nicely posed... it\'s a cool figure (and I remind you that I disapprove of the word \'art\', and so prefer not to use it with regard to my own stuff or anyone else\'s, so \'cool\' will have to suffice here ).:)

I\'ve also painted figure after figure with the same colour scheme, half-heartedly executed and adding little value to the original model. And I\'ve painted models and put in a great deal of effort, coming up with something I consider quite worthwhile - but by being completely, coldly calculating about the entire thing. This colour with that colour, this technique to provide that effect...

my point? I\'m sure I had one somewhere... I think that painting, sculpting and converting are all equally worthwhile, and all just as deserving of a term like \'art\'.

Anyway, a slightly funny aside from history - Roman marble copies of Greek bronzes are still considered \'art\', even though they added nothing to the original bar a few treestumps up the butt or under the arm for structural reasons... and they used to *paint* those too (bright nasty colours), but the versions with all the paint worn away are still considered to be of artistic merit :) .

Anyway, interesting thread this, gives me a chance to vent my over-opinionated spleen a bit :D
 

Panza

New member
At the end of the day it\'s all a matter of personal taste, yes?

I\'m sure I\'m not going to change the minds of anyone who likes WIP stuff, anymore than they\'re going to change my mind. And I\'m sure that those people who give high marks because they collect the same army, or know the painter, or are a big fan of the company that make the model will continue to do so. Me? I\'ll keep skipping unpainted stuff (bar the odd scratchbuilt green that comes along and stirrs me into action) and marking minis acording to my own personal set of criteria. How could I do anything else?

And of course the art thing is totally subjective, although personally (and please, this is just my opinion) I do have a problem reconciling the idea of artwork by comitee, or with the input of more than one person. I\'m still a believer in the \'singular artistic vision\', but hey, that\'s me.:D
 

frenchkid

New member
Originally posted by Panza
...and I don\'t mean to be sensitive or anything, but Frenchkid, when you said \'...so next time you see a conversion, give it marks based on the conversion...\', I give the marks I want to give based on my personal criteria, not on what you think I should give. Democracy means I can do what I want to do. Keep repeating that. :moon:

hey calm down I didn\'t mean to offense anybody. no need to show me that :moon: of yours. :D
 

dauber22

New member
Originally posted by Panza
At the end of the day it\'s all a matter of personal taste, yes?

Yes it is. And isn\'t that the great thing about CMON? We all get to express our own opinions through voting and here in the Forums. And wouldn\'t it be incredibly dull if we all agreed about everything? This thread would just be thirty-five replies of \"Yes, you\'re right.\"
 

frenchkid

New member
Originally posted by dauber22
Originally posted by Panza
At the end of the day it\'s all a matter of personal taste, yes?

Yes it is. And isn\'t that the great thing about CMON? We all get to express our own opinions through voting and here in the Forums. And wouldn\'t it be incredibly dull if we all agreed about everything? This thread would just be thirty-five replies of \"Yes, you\'re right.\"

Unfortunatly, that happens a lot. Just look at the minis with the most coments and you\'ll see what I\'m talking about.

\"That mini is so cool\"
\"Wow love that mini, great paintjob\"
\"You are the best painter I ever saw great job\"
\"aaaargh I am lost for words,this mini is just to cool\"
\".........\"
 

Pellimore

New member
Frenchkid, I\'m not sure if this is what you were trying to point out, but I agree that a growing number of comments are just useless rants about how \"cool\" a mini is, without any in-depth reasons why a mini is good/bad.

I\'ve had my own share of comments that do no good, such as one of my favorites \"This is Schweet (spelt like that).\" Don\'t get me wrong, I\'m very grateful for any and all comments that I get, and I think its great to know that someone thinks that way of one of my models.

Its just, for a few more seconds of their time, and a little effort, they could have given a little insight as to why my mini was \"Schweet\" and maybe even a way to improve the model.

Personally, I\'ve tried to leave as detailed comments as possible (I\'m not sure if I\'ve commented on anyone whos keeping up with this thread). Besides my first few comments (which were bad, and probably mean, sorry), I\'ve listed what I liked on the model, what I didn\'t like on the model, and any ways I could think of to improve the model.

Sorry if this is a little off topic, but it felt appropriate.

Have fun!
-Pellimore
 
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