Thinning paints?

[GamerDad]

After watching the first Miniature Mentor tutorial, I was a convert to thinning down paints. That, and after drowning a few Space Marines in paint and losing all the detail! :curse!:

However, it seems that I'm just setting myself up for frustration. Thin paints is fine when splashing on some base colors, but when fine detail needs to be painted on, it seems that more applications = more opportunities to mess up = frustrated painter!

I tried the new range of Citadel paints for my Tau army and it seems my Tau Ochre paint, applied straight-from-the-pot (gasp! the horror! blasphemy!!) with a moist paintbrush is thin enough to save the details but thick enough to give me decent coverage after just a few layers.

Am I alone in this?? I've always diluted my paints, sometimes even 1:1 ratio, for fear of obscuring/losing details, but it seems that I've only been shooting myself in the foot.

 

[TrystanGST]

Not thinning your paints is a faux pas around these parts. There's a lot of debate about how MUCH to thin, but it's pretty much universally agreed upon that paints should rarely, if ever, be applied straight from a pot. Yes, it will require more coats and yes, it will require a little more care to keep the paint where you want it. But the end result is worth it. IF your desired end result is tabletop plus.

 

[GamerDad]

But how many coats? I find myself applying my Foundation paints about 3-5x, if not more. I don't even want to think about counting the Layer paints. I've tried red (Blood Angels), green (Orcs) and brown/yellow/ochre (Tau) and they are very poor in coverage. I know at least 5 layers is not enough. With so much fine painting to do, it's hard NOT to make errors, hence my other thread about using a fine-tip pen.

I am aiming for a good tabletop mini with bright colors, something that doesn't look like a mini that a 6-year old with a GW Basecoat brush put together. "Tabletop plus," is that what it's called?

 

[boubi]

Tricky question, the problem is that it is really hard to solve this question on a forum. The best is that an experimented painter shows you his technique and have an exchange of what you want to aim as a result.
Some painting video can help, but will not solve it... Only one way is to practice several times on different minis with a precise goal, try, try and try again until you achieve it.
Some advice:
- your brush must be damp, not full of paint, you need to remove 80% on a paper towel before applying, bu pushing the paint where you want the color to be, the paint must almost dry directly after application, then directly apply a new layer. you can apply 10 layers in few minutes...
- You can use Vallejo Glaze medium, it keep the pigments together, adding a drop will make your paint thinner, transparent but blending will be smoother by removing the tension from the water you use in your dilution
- Use Good brush, favorite is natural Kolinsky brush, Raphael, Winsor and Newton, etc... it will help to keep some paint in the bristle and the point stay in shape during the application of the paint layers and layers. No need to recharge your brush between layers or reshape the point (less frustrating)

Then, if you stay here on CMON asking questions and showing pictures of your work, you will get many good advice. But really the best is to look for an experience painter to share this on a mini with him directly.

 

[TrystanGST]

I endorse everything boubi said.

As for number of layers, it really depends on what you're going for. I tend to thin my paints roughly 1:1 glaze medium/paint, and I don't need more than 4 or 5 coats to get a solid color (which I'm usually not after anyways, since I'm using the thinned paints to blend and shade). I use a mix of GW, P3, Reaper and Vallejo paints.

Tabletop is a very broad term, but what you're after could definitely be called tabletop or tabletop plus.

 

[ozymandias]

It sounds like you are potentially overthinning the paints for what you require. Aiming for 9+ scores on CMON probably requires that colours be built up slowly and, yes, this does mean that you have to do several layers to get an even coating without losing detail. However, for more table top standard you can use a slightly thicker consistency (I would still thin the paint as it eases the flow off the brush).

I would also question whether you are perhaps overloading your brush with paint? This may be the cause of frustration as it becomes harder to control the flow of the paint.

Alternatively, this could just be a question of practice. Stick at it and the detail will come... Either way it sounds like you are thinking the right way and asking the right questions. It would be good to see a few pictures of your minis so that we can get a feel for some of the issues that you are experiencing.

 

[Einion]

Thin paints is fine when splashing on some base colors, but when fine detail needs to be painted on, it seems that more applications = more opportunities to mess up = frustrated painter!

Yes there is that. There are essentially two ways to work with this: thin as little as needed to achieve the desired brushing characteristics and lack of brushmarks in the dried paint (which as you've discovered may be no thinning at all in certain cases) or to learn to live with the number of layers it does take at the current level of dilution.

There really isn't much middle ground between these since there's not much in the way of other variables; the other variable is of course the paint, and some are definitely better than others. Unfortunately it's not the case that one range is universally better all round, as all ranges have some colours that cover well and others not so well (even when you get to paints far above the level of common hobby paints this is still true to a degree).

I tried the new range of Citadel paints for my Tau army and it seems my Tau Ochre paint, applied straight-from-the-pot (gasp! the horror! blasphemy!!) with a moist paintbrush is thin enough to save the details but thick enough to give me decent coverage after just a few layers.

Well discovered. This is why thinning ratios are a bit of a joke.

But how many coats?

As already stated this is an open-ended question. For display pieces this can literally rise into the double digits but obviously when you're painting armies as you are you want to be rational about this and have it be as few as possible - relates to my first point, thin as little as necessary to achieve smooth brushing.

Einion

 

[Trevor]

I was thinking about number of coats the other day. It has somehow become engrained that the more layers you do the better. I think this is rubbish. Lots of coats does not equal an excellently painted mini. It is the end result that is of interest. If you can get a great effect in 3 coats then that is fine. If it needs 10, then so be it.

To answer the thinning question, what Einion said, you don't have to thin at all. The reason for thinning is to get the paint to behave in the way you need it to. For basecoats I often don't thin at all, or only thin a little. For later layers, it depends on what I'm doing. One reason for thinning is that you can always add more paint, but you can't take it off, so adding thin layers enables you to get the effect you want gradually, without going too far.

Bottom line is: do what works best for you.

 

[GamerDad]

Tricky question, the problem is that it is really hard to solve this question on a forum. The best is that an experimented painter shows you his technique and have an exchange of what you want to aim as a result.

Anyone volunteering? I'm in the NE of England I've tried asking the local GW guys but they always say "it's easy, just do this" but it's not the result I want. Their own minis don't impress me very much, which begs the question how the hell did they get the store display minis to look that good?

Some painting video can help, but will not solve it... Only one way is to practice several times on different minis with a precise goal, try, try and try again until you achieve it.
Some advice:
- your brush must be damp, not full of paint, you need to remove 80% on a paper towel before applying, bu pushing the paint where you want the color to be, the paint must almost dry directly after application, then directly apply a new layer. you can apply 10 layers in few minutes...
- You can use Vallejo Glaze medium, it keep the pigments together, adding a drop will make your paint thinner, transparent but blending will be smoother by removing the tension from the water you use in your dilution
- Use Good brush, favorite is natural Kolinsky brush, Raphael, Winsor and Newton, etc... it will help to keep some paint in the bristle and the point stay in shape during the application of the paint layers and layers. No need to recharge your brush between layers or reshape the point (less frustrating)

Thanks for this. I'll be posting as many pics as I can so that you guys can "see" what I'm doing.

With regards to brushes, I do use Raphael 8404s and WN S7 brushes. I just realized I've been using the Raphaels and they're a bit worn out, but my WNs are still good. Plus I got a set of WN S7s coming my way, a 3, 1, 0, and 2/0 brush. Damn, these things are expensive!! But after my frustration with GW brushes and after experiencing how vastly superior these brushes are, I guess they're worth it. I'd rather "lose" some good money on good brushes than lose my hair and grind my teeth in frustration.

I don't need more than 4 or 5 coats to get a solid color (which I'm usually not after anyways, since I'm using the thinned paints to blend and shade). I use a mix of GW, P3, Reaper and Vallejo paints.

Tabletop is a very broad term, but what you're after could definitely be called tabletop or tabletop plus.

I am definitely not going for Golden Demon, but I am aiming for slightly-better than tabletop. I think someone told me that "tabletop" followed the three-feet rule --- if it looks good from 3 feet, it's alright. Well, I want to follow a three-inch rule, meaning I still want my minis to look good on close scrutiny. I guess I'm a bit of OCD there in a sense too. Like the kneepad on the Tau Fire Warrior. I was painting the cloth Chaos Black and got a very small stroke of paint onto the kneepad. I would say about 1mm in length by 1mm in width, triangular shape. It would never be seen from tabletop, it would not likely matter even on scrutiny. But I still had to "fix" it with a few layers of Ochre paint. :curse!:

It sounds like you are potentially overthinning the paints for what you require. Aiming for 9+ scores on CMON probably requires that colours be built up slowly and, yes, this does mean that you have to do several layers to get an even coating without losing detail. However, for more table top standard you can use a slightly thicker consistency (I would still thin the paint as it eases the flow off the brush).

Nope, not aiming for 9+. Not even aiming to "show off" my work except to ask for help. However, I realize the importance of thinning paints both as a means to save the mini's details from being drowned out and as a way to layer on effects or shading. However, for my current work, I don't plan to do any shading.... but it's still weird and I still feel scared everytime I apply paint that hasn't been thinned to what I'm used to.

the other variable is of course the paint, and some are definitely better than others. Unfortunately it's not the case that one range is universally better all round, as all ranges have some colours that cover well and others not so well (even when you get to paints far above the level of common hobby paints this is still true to a degree).

I've not really tried with the old GW paints, but I wonder if there are any here who used to thin GW paints but have discovered that this is not necessary (or less important now) with the new GW range?

Well discovered. This is why thinning ratios are a bit of a joke.

What does this mean?

As already stated this is an open-ended question. For display pieces this can literally rise into the double digits but obviously when you're painting armies as you are you want to be rational about this and have it be as few as possible - relates to my first point, thin as little as necessary to achieve smooth brushing.

Agreed. I can see spending loads of time on a single, display-level mini, but not for run-of-the-mill Tau Fire Warriors. Still, having said that, I don't want to do a haphazard job on them. Re: smooth brushing, I guess as long as the paint "lays flat" (I see only wet paint, not brush strokes), I am okay? Like I said, applying paint like this is still scary for me; I only did the experiment at the end of a frustrating painting session.

 

[ozymandias]

Gamerdad i i think Einon's point is that everything dependson the individual, the paint you are using and your preferences.in this hobby nothing is absolutely wrong or absolutely right. It is a question is what are you comfortable with?

I'm back in the UK in September and will gladly spend some time running through some of the basics with you. Alternatively contact Tommy Soule who does some excellen classes in Manchester.

 

[GamerDad]

Gamerdad i i think Einon's point is that everything dependson the individual, the paint you are using and your preferences.in this hobby nothing is absolutely wrong or absolutely right. It is a question is what are you comfortable with?

Understood. However, my point is that you guys obviously have been doing this for a great deal longer than I have, with a great deal more skill than I have. Thus, I am asking for help rather than be stumbling in the dark by myself. Also, as a gamer-on-a-budget (who isn't?), I'd like to keep my "discarded models due to unsatisfactory paint results" to a minimum!!

I'm back in the UK in September and will gladly spend some time running through some of the basics with you. Alternatively contact Tommy Soule who does some excellen classes in Manchester.

Oh! Manchester is a good few hours away, but I would think the learning will be worth it. I'll give Tommy a PM. Check PM as well please!

 

[Bailey03]

I've tried asking the local GW guys but they always say "it's easy, just do this" but it's not the result I want. Their own minis don't impress me very much, which begs the question how the hell did they get the store display minis to look that good?

Yeah, GW seems to have a certain painting style that they are trying to sell. They're marketing strategy seems to be we want to sell you everything - models, paints, brushes, painting books, etc. I also get the feeling from their stores and their box art that they're not going for a high level of painting so they don't intimidate the gamers. I see GW minis on this forum all the time that are way better than the box art of the same figure. If you have some independent hobby/gaming stores near you I'd check them out. You might find some painters there who can give you better advice.

I've not really tried with the old GW paints, but I wonder if there are any here who used to thin GW paints but have discovered that this is not necessary (or less important now) with the new GW range?

I believe the new GW layers are meant to be slightly thinner already, so there's a difference from the old ones. Still, I think they need to be thinned a bit more for best results. I really like Reaper Master Series paints, by the way. If you're not happy with the GW they are worth giving a try. I use a wet palette for mixing and prefer the bottle paints (Reaper and Vallejo) over the pots (GW and P3). But paint brand is a personal choice. All those brands will give you good results... it's just what you like best.

What does this mean?

People will say 1 part water to 1 part paint, or 3 parts water to 1 part paint, etc. Different colors and different brands cover differently so there's no firm recipe for water to paint ratio.

 

[Einion]

Well discovered. This is why thinning ratios are a bit of a joke.

What does this mean?

It's about all the variables. The first ones are maybe the most obvious: individual preferences or requirements. But even different pots of 'the same' paint from various batches can vary. Add these things together and it should start to be clear that any published dilution ratios are a suggestion at best, should always be taken as a starting point and never as gospel.

Re: smooth brushing, I guess as long as the paint "lays flat" (I see only wet paint, not brush strokes), I am okay?

Basically yes.

Something worth reiterating in case you've read it elsewhere is about brush loading and unloading; while most of the painting we do uses paint that is quite fluid, this shouldn't equate with a risk of the paint slopping on the figure because the brush is carrying that much liquid paint. The way you keep on top of this is by only partially loading the brush, or by unloading a little/some/most of the paint the brushhead has wicked up.

Control of the amount of paint in the brush can be what makes the difference between a glaze and a wash. They can actually use exactly the same very dilute mix, but when glazing the brush is just dampened with it but when doing a wash it's much wetter.

Einion

 

[GamerDad]

Something worth reiterating in case you've read it elsewhere is about brush loading and unloading; while most of the painting we do uses paint that is quite fluid, this shouldn't equate with a risk of the paint slopping on the figure because the brush is carrying that much liquid paint. The way you keep on top of this is by only partially loading the brush, or by unloading a little/some/most of the paint the brushhead has wicked up.

Control of the amount of paint in the brush can be what makes the difference between a glaze and a wash. They can actually use exactly the same very dilute mix, but when glazing the brush is just dampened with it but when doing a wash it's much wetter.

Yeah, I don't load up the brush too much; I either swipe it on a bit of paper towel before painting or clean the brush, squeeze out the excess water with a paper towel, then just touch the tip or 1/3rd of the brush to the paint to "load" it up. Is this correct? When I paint, I only have enough that the area where the brush goes over gets wet. I will admit I sometimes overload the brush and mini when doing basecoat, but I return to that spot and wick up the extra paint and apply elsewhere until the excess paint is gone.

I've always been confused re: glaze vs. wash.

 

[GamerDad]

I believe the new GW layers are meant to be slightly thinner already, so there's a difference from the old ones. Still, I think they need to be thinned a bit more for best results. I really like Reaper Master Series paints, by the way. If you're not happy with the GW they are worth giving a try. I use a wet palette for mixing and prefer the bottle paints (Reaper and Vallejo) over the pots (GW and P3). But paint brand is a personal choice. All those brands will give you good results... it's just what you like best.

Yep, I do use a wet palette as well. My paints lasts overnight instead of just 10 minutes, so I don't waste too much paint! However, the main reason I like to use GW paints is because I don't have the time/money to experiment with other paint ranges on too many minis. With GW paints, I just pick up the recommended colors and paint.

 

[TrystanGST]

A wash is used to load the color into the low areas.
A glaze is used to add a hint of color over a surface.

As Einion says, you can use the same paint as a glaze or a wash, depending on how you apply it.

 

[Trevor]

"discarded models due to unsatisfactory paint results" to a minimum

Fairy power spray is your friend here, it will strip metal and plastic minis no trouble (well with a bit of scrubbing with an old toothbrush).

Also, don't feel you have to use other paints, GW ones are fine. I do use vallejo, P3 and rackham for specific tasks, but GW are more than good enough. For me the only exception to this are the Vallejo model Air metallics, these are great, but you only really need the silver and gold, you can get a variety of metallics by using these with washes of other colours.

 

[Einion]

Yeah, I don't load up the brush too much; I either swipe it on a bit of paper towel before painting or clean the brush, squeeze out the excess water with a paper towel, then just touch the tip or 1/3rd of the brush to the paint to "load" it up. Is this correct?

All good. One thing you might like to add to this is running the brush gently over the palette paper, which very slightly unloads the brushhead; useful for fine control of paint level in the brush when you're doing finer detail. Combine this with a rolling action and it'll help to maintain a good point on your brush too (real hair, synthetics will always curl over).

When I paint, I only have enough that the area where the brush goes over gets wet. I will admit I sometimes overload the brush and mini when doing basecoat, but I return to that spot and wick up the extra paint and apply elsewhere until the excess paint is gone.

Also good. When basecoating I often apply the paint a little more generously, relying on the paint to shrink back as it dries. This is sometimes described as 'floating' the paint on, which can be a good technique for applying certain metallic paints.

I've always been confused re: glaze vs. wash.

In a mini-painting context a wash is watery paint (usually darker) applied more heavily, with the intent for it to settle into recesses.
A glaze is very thin/dilute paint applied thinly to slightly colour the surface. Although it can be used more crudely it's generally a careful, controlled technique.

Einion

 

[Kelly Kim]

I don't really have anything constructive to add to this thread. I just wanted to say that it really warms my heart to see all these fantastically accomplished painters lending a helping hand... it really flies in the face of the "snobby artist" stereotype!

 

[GamerDad]

+1 to Kelly's sentiments. I guess I got caught up in the discussion so much I forgot to thank the guys for helping me. So thank you very much guys!

Re: wash vs. glaze -- I guess I understand what a wash is --- to get a diluted but darker-color paint to go into depressions to create "depth" and a bit of shadow. A glaze is still a bit confusing... is this when, for example, I have a surface that is mainly red in color, then I apply successive coats/layers of (slightly) diluted orange paint for highlight, is the orange "layer" considered glazing?

Trevor, I'd love to hear your method of stripping the plastic minis! I'm itching to buy another set of Tau Fire Warriors just to try out other things, but if I can skip that extra cost for now and re-purpose maybe three of my Tau models, that would be great!

Einion, thanks for the confirmation on my technique. My palette paper is a sheet of greaseproof paper, and yes, I "squeeze out" the excess paint on the brush on it by applying pressure and rolling the brush handle in my fingers. I love how my WNs and Raphael brushes maintain a very good point even without the rolling technique though!