The Economics of It

[Shroud]

Eric, question: when you say 20 dollars an hour, does that include the cost of the miniatures? Or is that on top of the miniatures?


To make 20 bucks an hour on top of the cost of minis for my latest auction, it would have to sell for ~ 800 bucks. Not likely to happen I think the most I could get on commission is 10 bucks an hour + cost of figs.

Jarrett

 

[Mengu]

Originally posted by elouchard
For ebay it is pretty easy if I can finish a figure in 1.5 to 2 hours.

I don\'t understand. How can you file, clean, assemble, prime, paint, base, take a good picture, and post it on e-bay in 2 hours or less and be able to sell it for $40?

Edit: Forgot the cost of the mini, make that $46, including ebay/paypal costs, paints, brushes, basing materials, etc.

 

[Corvus]

Originally posted by Shroud
To make 20 bucks an hour on top of the cost of minis for my latest auction, it would have to sell for ~ 800 bucks. Not likely to happen I think the most I could get on commission is 10 bucks an hour + cost of figs.

The problem is only minis painted to a very high quality sell for a lot of money, but of course these are also the minis that require a lot of work. So minis that are sold on eBay probably won\'t earn you more than 10 USD an hour (except when you are called Jennifer Haley ).

Commissions are different. I know painters that ask a fixed hourly rate...

 

[Shroud]

I\'d probably do better to simply ask 10 dollars an hour for my armies :\\

 

[Mengu]

Originally posted by Shroud
I\'d probably do better to simply ask 10 dollars an hour for my armies :\\

Yes you would, but you could ask for more.

I\'m guessing (just a guess) Jennifer spent around a half hour filing and cleaning that mini, 5-8 hours or so (hard to guess without actually holding the mini in my hand) painting the mini itself, at least 1.5 hours building and painting the base, and at least a half hour taking the picture, editing and posting it. That\'s 8-10 hours of work. The e-bay commision is pretty steep around that $200 mark. She\'ll be getting approximately $20-$25 an hour. That\'s a good rate if it\'s what you want to live on. I\'m glad to see she has the reputation to be able to actually make that. I\'m not too happy to know that many more around her level deserve as much but can\'t seem to get it.

 

[ringsnake]

Originally posted by Corvus

Originally posted by Shroud
Meanwhile Jen has 1 confrontation fig over 200 dollars right now (granted it\'s a ltd edition, but still!!). Painful!

I\'ve seen it today on eBay: starting bid 200 USD

On topic: ebay sales and commissions are a way to finance the hobby for me

In addition to which she\'s FAST, or so I\'ve heard. It seems that to make money at Ebay you need speed + quality to make decent coin, which is the same for any artistic endeavor. I\'ve also heard that Ebay sales tend to turn into comission work for the better painters.

 

[Shroud]

\"Yes you would, but you could ask for more.
\"

Really? Im not sure. Hard to say. Id be curious to know how much per hour a person would pay for a 40 hour Confrontation army.

PS I don\'t count any of my photography or website updating time towards the time to create the mini. I just do that as part of the hobby

 

[Mengu]

Try $500. If you have 8-10 miniatures in the army, that\'s $50-$60 per miniature. As expensive and as detailed as Confrontation minis are, it is a fair price. Obviously can\'t give you any guarantees but if you post it with some links to your website as proof of the quality of the stuff you paint, you should get bids on it. Unfortunately I\'m not too familiar with the Confrontation market, I\'m more familiar with the Reaper market. Maybe I\'ll start looking at it for a month or so then get back to you on this. After all there does need to be a market to be able to sell anything...

 

[Sjakkie]

At the moment I\'m doing some small commissioned work in the form of converting some minis for someone else. I do this just for the fun of it, and am making about 2-3euro per hour. Which is enough for me.
I am planning on starting up a webpage and doing some more conversions to sell to others (via this webpage or via ebay).
I think the difference is mainly in the reason for you doing the commissions:

I) to make some extra money (or to provide a total income)

II) to keep doing what you like: painting (or in my case converting) miniatures, without it costing you so much money.

I get the fun of playing with miniatures, chopping, cutting, gluing and sculpting, without paying for the parts... GREAT!!


[last thought: I do think converting is rather different from painting where the selling aspect is concerned. Painting finishes a piece, while a converted miniature isn\'t finished at all. I think I would find it more difficult to part with a completely finished mini.]

 

[MaestroOfMayhem]

I was thinking of saving up for a nice camera and maby selling some of the mini\'s I don\'t use much or ones I intend just to sell. I would then use the money to paint more models, for myself and for selling. That way the hobby supports itself, a free hobby almost. All I would have to invest is time and effort, and I\'ve got pleny of that. And I would maby get some recognition and save up my moneys to go to a GT or GD or even a something-con.

 

[Kelly Kim]

full time painter

Hmmm... it seems that these \"painting for pay\" topics get tossed around alot lately on forums.

Speaking as a full time painter (that is, I don\'t do anything else for money at the moment, and haven\'t for years), you don\'t have the same attitude or approach as a painter that does it in their spare time to help pay for their hobby. I have to pay the rent. I have to pay my bills. I have to pay for food. Right now, I have to save some moolah for an engagement ring, and on occasion, I have to save up for transportation and hotel costs in order to attend tournaments and conventions so that I can promote my business.

My business partner and I have a studio dedicated solely to cranking out the finest fully painted and converted individual models, units, and entire armies in the business (all false modesty aside). I show up at 9 or 10 in the morning, respond to emails, make a pot of coffee, and then start painting. Other than for lunch, and the occasional trip to the Fedex office, we don\'t stop painting until 6 pm every day. Then we take home a box of painting supplies and a few more models to do some overtime painting at home (the reason we don\'t stay at the studio is that our significant others demand that we spend SOME time with them). We spend so much time painting that we had to bribe one of our IT friends to put together our website for us (coming soon, I assure you!).

It gets exhausting, and if you\'re not careful, most people\'s work quality will start to slip at this pace. For us, we double check each other\'s work, often touching up or adding extra layers or detailing to each other\'s projects. We keep on top of any possible painting contests locally and on the Net, and often enter contract models in them before we ship them off. If we keep on winning or placing just on / off the podium, then our work is staying consistently excellent. If not, we go back and rework the model. Lastly, we send pics to the client a day or two before shipping to make sure there isn\'t any last minute changes he wants, and that the quality is what he\'s expecting.

The pay? Probably not worth the stress on my back (I\'m hoping it\'ll hold out until my friend\'s wife graduates from chiropractic college) or the strain on my eyes. I work harder than any other time in my life, and probably get paid worse, but I still love this job. Chad and I are building a business, with a respected name, and don\'t have to deal with the office b.s. that drove us into painting for a living in the first place. My girlfriend and parents are worried that I\'ll be poor forever (at least, by their standards), but we keep going on in the hopes that people will one day appreciate finely painted miniatures enough to pay what they\'re really worth. In the meantime, we\'re proud of every painted model that leaves the studio, and have a very loyal clientele who appreciate what we do.

It\'s a great time from the buyer\'s point of view right now, but that may change in the future. I mean, can you imagine Brom or Larry Elmore painting covers of magazines and fantasy novels for 10 bucks an hour? Even being a professional painter myself, I\'d gladly dish out the going rate for a Jennifer Haley, Jason Richards, or Jarrett Lee painted Confrontation model if I had a little bit more money.

As for all you painters out there that keep turning down larger contracts, send the client our way. We\'d definately appreciate it.

Kelly Kim
Sorcerer Studios
sorcererstudios@shaw.ca

 

[dauber22]

Hmmm... Well thought out, nicely written... HOw the hell did you sneak in here!!

But seriously, I really appreciated hearing a positive comment from someone who knows AND who seems to appreciate the joys of being a full time painter rether than just the economicss of it.

Somehow it seems somewhat wrong to look at it as just an \"hourly rate\". I\'m not quite sure Da Vinci\'s \"Last Supper\" or \"Mona Lisa\" was calculated out that way when it was originally done

 

[elouchard]

This is a reply for some older posts.

2 hours does include cleaning and priming ~ 15 minutes and gluing to a base (warhammer fig). The photography thing can take longer but I try to take photos of a few figures at a time and put them together all at once ~20 minutes. So that leaves about 1.5 hours to paint a nice figure. Depending on the sculpt that is no problem, especially if there is a good deal of armor that can be done in metallics. I also have a bag of sneaky tricks that speed things up.

Here are some links to onces I did fast. Each one was sold on ebay and did $20-$25 per hour before ebay costs.

1 hour
http://www.lonebrushman.com/gaming_quality1.htm
http://www.lonebrushman.com/fire_giant.htm

2.0-2.5 hours
http://www.lonebrushman.com/dark_elf_champion.htm

4 hours
http://www.lonebrushman.com/fire_elemental.htm

Speed is crucial - that\'s real story here. Sometimes things don\'t work out and I get $15 or less per hour but sometime I get more on ebay. Commissions go the same way except for competition quality work which always ends up around $12-$15 per hour due to extra work on bases, freehand and NMM (brutal time sink).

Now for Jarrett.

The per hour rate includes the cost of the mini. For a reaper character figure that is only $3-4. Shipping is $5 but in the auctions the buyer pays that. Ebay fees are 5% if I rememeber correctly. Those add up but if one paints in 2 instead of 3 hours the final rate goes way up.

I\'m not sure why you are worried that your customers will think you doing a cash grab. If anything you would get more customers selling them individually. And yes, those figures are a steal but the high price of an entire army will keep more customers away.

$10 per hour should be your absolute minimum target for ebay but don\'t think that is all your work is worth.


Eric

 

[Trunks2560]

I\'ve got a question for all the people that have been doing e-bay sales for a while. Is there any particular style of painting or manufacturer of models that seem to sell better?

The reason I ask is because I just got done painting a 400 man Imperial Guard army for a client and I just can\'t bring myslef to do mass work anymore. I\'d really like to switch to small squads, character models, and maybe large monsters. I have to admit that Jarret\'s amazing work on Confrotation models has really got me interested in doing some Confrontation stuff as well. My only problem is getting the models here in Nebraska!

I\'d really like to know if any has any tips about what stuff seems to sell decently........because I swear that if I see another Catachan Guardsmen I\'m going to attack somebody with my paintbrush!

 

[Shroud]

Single mini\'s sell well, esp. Games Workshop and Reaper character figs. Basically \"heroes\" with nice bases.

Confrontation is hard to sell until you get a name going, I find. The demand is still a bit low and it can be hard to get auction hits. I\'ve seen pretty nice Confrontation stuff going for surprisingly low prices.

As someone who is starting out, I would recommend ebaying the GW single mini stuff - lords, seargents, heroes, things like that.

Jarrett

PS thanks for the further thoughts Eric!

 

[Molebrain]

well, my .02

Joining a little late, but I started selling because I have a problem saying no, and I\'m still amazed that people want me to paint stuff for them. I have only made anything even resembling decent money on one or two figs, most stuff I end up at $2-$3 an hour.

Honestly I\'d be doing it anyway, and at least this way my hobby is paid for and I don\'t have to worry about buying a new figure that looks cool, or that new bottle of vallejo paint that\'s a micro shade darker than one I already have.

 

[DennisMech]

Originally posted by Corvus

Originally posted by Shroud
Meanwhile Jen has 1 confrontation fig over 200 dollars right now (granted it\'s a ltd edition, but still!!). Painful!

I\'ve seen it today on eBay: starting bid 200 USD

On topic: ebay sales and commissions are a way to finance the hobby for me

which mini is this? I have a question about how e-bay minis get put on this site, do people selling on e-bay upload the image with some command that makes it go to the front page? If not, how does it get there?

 

[Mengu]

Originally posted by elouchard
So that leaves about 1.5 hours to paint a nice figure.

I guess I need to be painting another 3 -4 years or so before I figure this one out ??? I can possibly get some smooth base coats in that time. If I\'m working on black primer, I\'ll also have some okay shading and blacklining, but that in no way makes a \"nice figure\". I\'m in awe. And I\'m glad that this will always be a hobby for me. But the way Eric works, and the way he thinks is exactly the way everyone who wants to make money by selling miniatures should look at it. $10/hr is too cheap for your effort. $15 is acceptable. $20 is what you should shoot for.

 

[elouchard]

I don\'t do it for a living but I do like to get paid what I think the figure are worth. I have just practice speed painting over many years to make sure it happens.

Painting faster is not easy and does take some time to learn. It just takes time to figure out what steps to remove or how to blend quickly. My thing is wet blending with thin layers. If I can go fast enough, the paint actually blends itself just due to the fact is is slightly wet. A few feathering strokes and the blends become smooth. That and underpainting to maximize contrast when using washes and reduce the number of washes needed.

I have to throw out all of my speed tricks though when I do NMM as there is no way to do it fast. The shadows and highlights all need to be painted on, as opposed to allowing light to just reflect off surfaces. A serious pain in the ass that we can all blame Rackham for foisting upon us

 

[Trunks2560]

Thanks Jarret,

Once again you\'ve helped me figure out some new directions to work on. I\'d just like to thank you once again for looking at that Devourer I did. I\'m proud to say that it\'s won me a few more clients because nobody in the area has really seen NMM stuff.