The Economics of It

[Fuseboy]

Reading the recent post on commission work, I have to say that the economics of all this baffle me. Painting miniatures for money seems to be the career planning equivalent of moving to Hollywood to be discovered.

Most of the auctioned minis that I see look like they sell for very close to the unpainted price.

Let\'s say you buy a nice single figure for $8, and you give it an 8-hour paint job. Factor in another dollar for painting materials used up and you\'ve got to sell this thing for $65 to make $7/hr (which is minimum wage here).

Many of the top-ranked auctioned miniatures on this site sold for more than that, but my guess is that an award-winning paint job takes more than a day, particularly with display bases (plus the additional materials costs).

It seems there\'s a number of possibilities for all this painters selling on ebay:

a) they haven\'t worked out their hourly rate yet
b) it\'s not done to make money (but then why go through the hassle of selling at all?)
c) painting miniatures is so much fun that $7/hr is enough
d) the painters are mostly students who would only be earning minimum wage anyways
e) the top ten percent can whip off a $65 paint job in much less time than that

Any opinions?

 

[ZaPhOd]

Well, I do it part time as a hobby. I cannot ever replace my hourly wage with my real job through paintign, so I just do it for the heck of it. Some commissions I can get close to $5 an hour maybe, but I find that it doesn\'t work out that way at all! I just don\'t care any more. Of course, if I am goign to do a high quality job for someone, I will charge them a high quality price, but the amount of time I spend is pretty open My recent sale of Morkoth to Grumbold (thanks again) probably netted me a whopping $2 an hour :O by the time it was all done with... That is not the point though. It is somethign I have fun doing, and I can get soem great pics to share on my site, as well as makign a bit of cash and making someone else happy

If you are trying to do this for a living, good luck!

 

[KatieG]

I agree with Glyn here, I do it purely for pleasure. I don\'t even WANT to think about what kind of money I am making an hour doing this. Really, its my hobby money, anything I make for doing commission figures goes right back into the hobby in the form of more minis for me to paint I want that Wolfen Clan box set, so I need to pick up a $50 commission somewhere... I want Tyrion, time to find a $25 commission etc. Although it does mean less of my own stuff gets painted, but I learn a lot from each commission, so its hardly time wasted...
--Katie G.

 

[slidedog]

I\'m with you. I do it for the fun of it and the quiet mediatative time away from the day-to-day. I sell them occasionally because the process is the thing for me, I really don\'t care to keep them, don\'t play the games and don\'t want to be dusting them all of the time. I also sell them because it helps support my mini habit. I don\'t have to tighten the household budget and I can spend money on minis, with ZERO guilt. Plus it\'s kind of an ego boost when you get a good price for a piece, makes you feel like someone likes your work!

 

[Mengu]

I don\'t understand the economics either. I know some people who are trying to do this as a significant part of their income, calling themselves professional painters (not giving any names), and I see them spending 15+ hours on a $50 commision. That\'s not good business in any book I know of. If the buyer is paying only $50, you paint the best you can in about 4 hours and call it done, leaving you 12.50/hr. That\'s what being a professional means. This is business.

If you\'re doing it for fun (or for friends or for practice, etc) charge \'em what you want, or don\'t charge \'em at all, it doesn\'t really matter. But I think the pros need to be very careful when naming their prices and deadline restrictions.

This brings us to another point. If you want to make money, you have to do it by commision. Selling on e-bay is good for practice, and to see what kind of price you can fetch, but not good for business.

Now let\'s look at who the buyer is. Gamers demanding single minis will not pay you more than what they can buy something off e-bay, so they can\'t be targeted with the market as it is. Gamers who demand units and can pay for it may be a good target, if you\'re a good speed painter. Collectors are a good target if you are an established painter (with a golden demon or two in your back pocket). Game stores and miniature companies are probably the best target since they themselves are businesses and can afford to pay the best price if you can give them the quality they want and meet their deadlines. Of course good luck getting your foot in the door.

What can I say, I\'m glad to have a profession other than painting miniatures, and will likely never sell anything I paint, though my strife for painting better will never end.

On one final note, I would really like to hear other theories/facts on the buyer/seller market for miniatures. Mine are simply humble opinions I have gained in the past few years simply by watching the market and talking to some painters.

 

[frenchkid]

One thing I really don\'t understand is how the prices go on Ebay. I\'ve seen some really good minis go for less than what they deserved and some medium minis go for a hell of a lot of money. One thing I did manage too figure out is that usually if you sell GW\'s latest mini pretty well painted you\'ll most probably get a nice price for it. I\'ll have to try it out oneday once I manage to take a corect picture of my minis

 

[KatieG]

Originally posted by frenchkid
One thing I really don\'t understand is how the prices go on Ebay. I\'ve seen some really good minis go for less than what they deserved and some medium minis go for a hell of a lot of money. One thing I did manage too figure out is that usually if you sell GW\'s latest mini pretty well painted you\'ll most probably get a nice price for it. I\'ll have to try it out oneday once I manage to take a corect picture of my minis

Ebay is definately funny... one thing about it though is that word of mouth gets you more money and repear buyers are worth gold Probably the minis you saw that were well painted and didn\'t go for much were either minis that people don\'t use for their gaming but not something a collector wanted, or the person was brand new and people didn\'t want to take a chance on someone new. You do better if people know you and have some of your work because they know what they\'re getting. They\'re willing to pay more than for that really pretty looking mini, but they\'re not sure they can use it, or how well the picture represents reality etc.

--Katie G.

 

[Grumbold Ironbrow]

Why paint for pay??

That\'s a very good question. I ended up taking my first commisions recently because someone was pestering me to paint for them and kept offering my more money until I had to say to myself \"you know, that could pay for that dragon you wanted...\" So I agreed. Next time I\'ll just go buy the bloody dragon. The only other reason I can see to sell is to clear the shelf off once in a while. I\'ve got a ton of firgures that I\'ll never use and have no idea what to do with....

I am also thankful for all of those who do sell at reasonable prices, thanks (Glyn and Matt) so I can get the few pieces that I do need for a game.

Cheers,
Grumb

 

[vincegamer]

many reasons

I don\'t aspire to be a professional painter, I aspire to be a lawyer. There\'s a huge income difference.

I agree with slidedog that I can use any $$ I get selling minis to buy minis so my \"hobbies\" expense on the books is diminshed and hopefully (someday) balanced out.
That\'s really the \"economics\" of it.

I\'ve had a couple of odd reasons to sell lately though.
1) I just painted some warmaster minis mainly because I was curious if I could paint minis that scale well. I sold them because I don\'t play warmaster and don\'t collect that scale.

2) My first ebay sale was an experiment. I got a mini free with an order of some ones I wanted so I painted the free one and sold her for $16. Not a good price if I had bought her, but she was free so all profit!

As to being known: I am not ever going to have the time to paint enough minis so that people can get to know me. The problem is I can only manage to paint about 4 minis per year right now (working and in law school). You can\'t build up a reputation unless people keep seeing your work show up on ebay and I simply don\'t have enough to have something up frequently.
Plus, I\'ve got a bit of a reputation on CMON, (for creativity rather than quality) but I\'m not selling my signature pieces and I don\'t think anyone would want them anyway as they are completely inapplicable for gaming. If anyone wanted them, it would just be for display and there are far better painters than me selling display pieces.
For an example, watch what I do in the Chick Challenge and see what no one would actually want to own

 

[stivo]

this comes from someone who has never sold anything over ebay and who is not a good painter...but i enjoy painting minis and dont play the games. With an ever growing collection i can see myself in the future selling over Ebay to cut down on dust collecting and to bring in some money to spend on new minis.

 

[lumpy]

I\'ve started with a few sales of my project figures on ebay, and this works for me because I\'m quite demanding in what I want to do, for how long, and to what standard.

Having done army commission work, I\'ve found that I become more of a painting whore than an actual painter.

With ebay, I set the price minimum at what I\'d be happy with, and anything on top of that is just gravy. If it doesn\'t sell, then, it wasn\'t meant to be.

Commission work can be very degrading...

\"Paint these old minis in this terrible colour scheme in record time, and I don\'t actually care how they look\" is something I hear too often.

 

[Dragonsreach]

I was once requested to paint a Sisters of Battle army in :- Camo Green Armour and Bestial Brown Robes!
I did one as a test piece for the guy. I took just over three hours in total to give the figure a face, three levels of highlights and all the metal work. In my opinion a reasonable paint job, but it looked awful, something like a half eaten Chocolate Lime sweet! (However he liked it!) Having painted that one as a tester, I thought about it and declined the job.
If I\'d accepted, it would have been a 1500 point army (100+ figures), which would have been over 300 hours painting. Now how can you cost up for a job like that, Would you have costed per fugure, or per squad? Would you have added extra for the fact that you hated the colours?

What commisions I do, I prefer to work to the maximum of a squad/boxed set as I feel that I can give my best to that amount of figures without burnout. Single figures give me the most pleasure as I can have creative license and it doesn\'t feel like a production line.

As for selling on Ebay I think it\'s each to their own. I don\'t want to go down that particular road as I\'ve seen mini\'s posted, from here, that are deserving of a far higher bid than they receive.
Can you place a reserve price on the mini? Would this then not be the way to ensure that your mini(s)get sold with a modicum of return for the work involved, and also to show/force respect for the painter?
If \"conventional\" artists can earn Thousands from Piles of brick, Pickled cows etc from collector/critics in the \'Fine Arts\', why shouldn\'t a miniature figurine painter get the same kind of respect from among collectors in this field?

Hey, here\'s a thought, woudn\'t it be great if someone like Steve Buddle sculpted a figure, painted it and put it in for consideration for the Turner Art prize? Love to see the look on some of those Psuedo\'s faces. (Hey Steve are you up for this?)

 

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Dragonsreach
If I\'d accepted, it would have been a 1500 point army (100+ figures), which would have been over 300 hours painting. Now how can you cost up for a job like that, Would you have costed per fugure, or per squad?

I cost per figure. Would you have painted the whole army one complete figure at a time? If so, that 300 hour estimate might be ok, but personally I paint them in groups (sometimes the entire army step-by-step, sometimes units) and so that time is greatly reduced - where it might take 3 hours for an individual troop model it then takes 5-10 for a unit of 10.

Would you have added extra for the fact that you hated the colours?

Maybe . I\'ll quote more for something I don\'t want to do than for something that looks like fun...

Ebay - I have, on occasion, made more than $10 an hour. Whether that\'s for a fast mini that sells ok or a good mini that sells well, it varies. More often than not that $10 per hour is my average. Works out to $16 NZ, which isn\'t exciting, but is ok. Mainly I find that Ebay gets me exposure to people who will commission things, and commissions are less risky as far as time-money goes.

For example, I recently listed a 7 hour paintjob that didn\'t even sell .

However, from that specific auction I got a commission for a *similar* model (different paint scheme, slight conversion) for about $80, a sale on one of my minis that I\'ve never listed (for $200), a bunch of other single mini commissions for various amounts, and booking for an army painted in January (which I was concerned would be a slow month). It\'s all good .

 

[Shroud]

\"This brings us to another point. If you want to make money, you have to do it by commision. Selling on e-bay is good for practice, and to see what kind of price you can fetch, but not good for business\"


Uck. I hate commissions - I like painting what I want to paint, at the pace I paint, and selling it when I\'m ready

I suppose I\'m approaching it as trying to be a \"pro\" painter. I log every 15 minute block I spend on a project. I update my website every few hours (lol j/k - sorta). I run polls all the time to find out what people want me to paint for sale. And lately I\'m trying to sorta carve out a specialty niche for myself - \"Kick ass Confrontation armies\" or something like that. Sure, they won\'t win Golden Demons but they look hella-nice on the tabletop.

This guy I painted today for my upcoming Dirz army for ebay. He took 1.5 hours to the minute:

Im very mindful of how long it takes to paint the figs for auction, while at the same time doing my damnedest not to compromise the quality. Once finished, I set the auction at a price I feel is fair to both myself and the buyer. For example, the mid-nor auction I did was just right to keep me happy in terms of dollars per hour. The Living Dead auction might come in low due to the lack of popularity of that particular Confrontation faction, but it\'s a learning experience.

As for income? This is \"supplementary\". No way in hell I\'d do it full time for a living - I make too much at my \"real job\"

I guess I\'m just rambling. There isn\'t really a point here, just some odd musings and observations.

BTW repeat customers *ARE* worth their weight in gold, and I try to treat them with the utmost courtesy and respect and friendliness.

Also, you need to get the shipping thing down pat in terms of not having figs broken in transit.

Ramble off!

Jarrett Lee

 

[DennisMech]

i think I just wet myself.

wow. recently, I\'ve been having some problems with your painting, as I felt it looked just too \"drybrushed\". But wow, that tiger is unbelievable, wow. If you could PM me how you painted it, or explain on your site, I\'d be so thankful. The colors are so perfect for it, and the way it blends into each other...
I think this Dirz army may be your most successful, you\'re really going the extra mile!

 

[Shroud]

*gasp* - drybrushed? well, yeah - the morbid puppets were drybrushed a lot (who doesn\'t drybrush skeletons??)

I will be posting this guy on my site eventually with some discussion on how I painted him. He\'s also \"waiting\" to appear on my CMON gallery with a blurb about the paint. Glad you like him - he\'s a bit crazy!

Jarrett

PS this guy is done primarily with the opposite \"speed technique\" to drybrushing: washes. He\'s 95% washed to achieve this effect. You should see the Dasyatis. Talk about an acid trip.

 

[elouchard]

I think you will find that fast painters can do really well selling on ebay or for commission. It helps tremendously to do work like Jarret\'s in less than 2 hours. At that speed, he can sell a figure for $30 and make $20 per hour (minus supply costs). Selling a whole unit painted at that level is exceedinlgy generous on his part as each figure could sell for $20-$50.
individually.

That is one reason I stay away from units, as I can do better with individual figures. Whoever buys Jarret\'s units is getting a steal

My target price for painting for ebay or commissions is always $20 per hour. It\'s actually difficult to do for commisions as I tend to do really detailed pieces lately like the orc shaman. For ebay it is pretty easy if I can finish a figure in 1.5 to 2 hours. The key is efficient detail painting - not wasting time on things that don\'t catch the eye. Faces and eyes are important, chainmail is not. Freehand can be nice but if sloppy will look bad, and clean freehand takes time to clean up mistakes.

When you all go to ebay you will notice some names always selling reaper figures in a moderate price range and doing well. They have gotten their speed/quality level down and certainly make decent money.

Eric

 

[Trunks2560]

I\'ve been painting to put myself through college. I haven\'t really been able to put up some things on ebay and see how they do just because I\'ve gone more to the commission route of painting. My local hobby store gives me some awesome deals just to have me sitting around when somebody comes in and buys an army. Most of my customers are business types that just want to play and have a nicely painted army but don\'t have the time to paint. I can usually knock out an army in 4 to five weekends depending on school and each infantry goes for $4. Sometimes you make out like a bandit (30 kroot in like 5 hours) and sometimes if I start to get interested in a model I\'ll make crap. (12 hours on my first commissioned NMM piece. Ended up having to turn down the rest of the commison).

Before I really started to think about improving my skills and before I started to burn out a bit, I could usually pull in $400-600 a month pretty easy. What really works is when I see somebody that wants to sell a seconed hand army that has a decent start to a paint job. The store will usually buy the army and I\'ll buy it from them for cheap.....spend sometime cleaning and finishing stuff....and then turn around and sell it . There was a period of about 4 months where I was getting about 1-1.5K doing stuff like this.

I\'ve recently been having slow business due to school and the fact that I live in Nebraska! Another reason for the slow business is becasue we have been having more and more rogue traders in our area and a lot of people are getting tired of seeing 15-20% of the armies be ones I\'ve painted.

As a college student painting can work as a job because it fits around your schedual. Would I want to do this for a living......no.......I\'d honestly rather be challanging myself and trying to get up the nerve to do a show piece.

 

[Shroud]

Thanks Eric

Im in a wierd position right now in that I *want* to do armies - I got kinda \"blah\" doing single minis and enjoy constructing a cool looking, cohesive army (including choosing the troops, \"presentation\", basing etc). Problem is I just can\'t bring myself to list the troops individually for auction - my more savy buyers will recognize that as a cash grab and I just feel too guilty doing it. Also, I\'m restricting it to Confrontation and Warmachine because GW armies are simply too many figures to paint.

Just wish my auctions for armies were more popular if they are as much of a \"steal\" as you say If it\'s true, they don\'t really bring in many bids. Meanwhile Jen has 1 confrontation fig over 200 dollars right now (granted it\'s a ltd edition, but still!!). Painful!

Jarrett

 

[Corvus]

Originally posted by Shroud
Meanwhile Jen has 1 confrontation fig over 200 dollars right now (granted it\'s a ltd edition, but still!!). Painful!

I\'ve seen it today on eBay: starting bid 200 USD

On topic: ebay sales and commissions are a way to finance the hobby for me