\"Sales Woes For GW\" -Really Intreresting!
- Thread starter bayrodney
- Start date
lol bite your tongue!
It\'s all a matter of taste, really. I happen to like Reaper minis, for the most part, even if the majority of poses are staic they are still well detailed and easily modified. Unlike GW figures, which all look like variations of other figures in their line, each Reaper dragon is distinct and individual. Unfortunately I have noticed them start to modify existing figures GW style last year, and I hope this doesn\'t become a trend for them.
I don\'t think GW would lose money if they lowered their prices. Let\'s say they make an anouncement that they are going to sell all of their models 50% off for the next three months, just as a test of sorts. I gauruntee that they would sell at least three times as many models during that period as they normally do, equalling about 150% more profit even though they are selling their stuff half price. How many people sit on the fence debating weather they REALLY NEED a certain boxed set or large model, but they can\'t justify the cost? All of them would go nuts during this period, and probably a whole lot of people who have turned their back on GW for alternatives would return during this period. Couple this with a massive add campaign and pressgangers holding gamedays like crazy at all the local shops (winners would win coupons redeemable for even more models) and you would suddenly turn everyone around and GW would look like saints again. It\'s all a matter of PR; they\'re models are no better or worse then other companies, as are they\'re prices, it\'s just a series of let-downs that have soured people towards them. They don\'t need to lower their prices forever, or get better sculpters (although it would help), they just need to change people\'s attitudes. Unfortunately, they seem to have the \"let them eat cake\" attitude, with their huge egos, and don\'t understand the most basic principle of business: Keep the customer HAPPY.
My brother-in-law opened up a beeper store a few years ago and he told everyone he had an unbeatable business strategy: He would sell beepers for a million dollars! When asked how that could could possibly work he would reply, \"sure it sounds crazy, but I only need to sell ONE!\"
He was joking of course, but it seems GW might have a similar strategy. With less people purchasing their products they raise prices to cover the difference. Unfortunately this just creates a downward spiral until you have just one customer left paying thousands for individual figures, and when he realizes he\'s got no one left to play with then what?
Spacemunkie
New member
I meant that they need to manufacture cheaper, not sell cheaper....
As for not exploiting cheap labour markets, I\'m afraid that many companies will need to do this to keep up with the opposition. Seriously, the best long-term thing GW could do would be to set up production in China. As well as being cheaper, it\'s a massive market.
paintingploddy
New member
$12.50 Australian an hour is a pittance. If you want to buy GW (without staff discount) aim a lot higher.
james sequeira
New member
i think gw already make alot of profit compared to how much it costs them to make the miniatures
a good start point for them might be white dwarf as this has been lacking in quality articles for awhile now.we stock WD every month and i dont even waste time picking it up to read.they seem to be filling it with rubbish,gap fillers.i used to really enjoy the dtailed painting guides in them.
nowerdays id rather pick up a copy of NOq
its alot better and an excelent buy really recomend to anyone who is unhappy with wd
a good start point for them might be white dwarf as this has been lacking in quality articles for awhile now.we stock WD every month and i dont even waste time picking it up to read.they seem to be filling it with rubbish,gap fillers.i used to really enjoy the dtailed painting guides in them.
nowerdays id rather pick up a copy of NOq
its alot better and an excelent buy really recomend to anyone who is unhappy with wd
DrEvilmonki
New member
I would doubt that their margins on mini is actually all that good compared to the up front costs of the molds.
Completely agree with this point. I have only taken up painting again about 6 months ago. In that time I have not want any White Dwarfs. On the other hand I was more than happy to fork out way more money for Cry Havoc and will get more.
That is my point about knowing your customers. White dwarf could be easily changed so that it was applicable to the fluff lovers as well as the mini hobbyists.
DrEvilmonki
New member
I agree with you there. The simple reality is that you can have ethical manufacturing in China and other countries. Even with pay rates 5 times higher than average plus accommadtion plus proper health and safety protacols it is cheaper to produce stuff in China than in the west. And in many cases the quality is better. It is difficult to achieve but not impossible.
Yes, I agree that one would expect a bigger return from such a massive turnover. But still, profit is profit. Are they able to cover their running costs? Yes. Are they able to meet their obligations? Yes. While GW is able to keep its creditors happy, pay its staff and buy the raw materials, it remains a profitable business.Originally posted by Spacemunkie
If I sell 60 million quids worth of gear, I expect to make a little more cash than 100k. Shit-street beckons if they can\'t drastically reduce their overheads and knock their stuff out cheaper.
With such a pitiful profit compared to outlay, GW certainly isn\'t growing. But that doesn\'t mean they\'re in shit street. What it does mean, is that soon they might find themselves in a non-profitable situation due to PP\'s and Rackham\'s burgeoning growth. If GW don\'t pick up their socks, then their flagging profit is an indication of the future, but certainly not the present.
They\'ve still got more coming in than going out.
For a 15-20 year old retail worker doind.... not really much, doing an enjoyable job, Kick ass discounts...
...Thats good
I ain\'t a person who wants to get paid $5.77674849 (Its worked out that way in some places
) To work at \'Kmart, or Woolworths, stacking shelves and being bored!I find I rarely go to GW stores or buy GW stuff anymore. I just don\'t feel compelled to do so.
- the price raises, while still affordable for me personally, are a turn-off. They are simply too frequent. They offend me as a customer.
- the flavor of their stuff feels very stagnant. I\'m kinda tired of the gothic space marine thing.
As for overall business model, I think Privateer is doing far better - not in terms of dollars yet, but in terms of strategy:
- it takes less models to play Warmachine. This makes it a cheaper game to get into. COST OF ENTRY is low, that\'s a very good thing!
- Warmachine feels easier to learn, easier to play, and more fun than the GW games.
- Privateer makes it easy to get started with their starter boxes. They are affordable and come with everything you need to start playing. Then you can get into expanded rule-books when you are ready to.
- Privateer\'s games are \"friendlier\". You can play without painted models. Our Warmachine group is quite large for this very reason. Sure, most folks paint their stuff, but Privateer manages to sell even to the gamers that never want to paint. And it\'s working well to grow the community.
- I vastly prefer PP\'s method of releasing a little bit for each army each month. I enjoy the fact that I can look forward to new goodies frequently regardless of which force I\'ve chosen.
As far as profit - a nominal profit isn\'t enough. You need to be demonstrating to investors that you can generate a strong return on that investment, percentage wise. Otherwise, the dollars are better spent/invested elsewhere where they can generate a higher % return.
- the price raises, while still affordable for me personally, are a turn-off. They are simply too frequent. They offend me as a customer.
- the flavor of their stuff feels very stagnant. I\'m kinda tired of the gothic space marine thing.
As for overall business model, I think Privateer is doing far better - not in terms of dollars yet, but in terms of strategy:
- it takes less models to play Warmachine. This makes it a cheaper game to get into. COST OF ENTRY is low, that\'s a very good thing!
- Warmachine feels easier to learn, easier to play, and more fun than the GW games.
- Privateer makes it easy to get started with their starter boxes. They are affordable and come with everything you need to start playing. Then you can get into expanded rule-books when you are ready to.
- Privateer\'s games are \"friendlier\". You can play without painted models. Our Warmachine group is quite large for this very reason. Sure, most folks paint their stuff, but Privateer manages to sell even to the gamers that never want to paint. And it\'s working well to grow the community.
- I vastly prefer PP\'s method of releasing a little bit for each army each month. I enjoy the fact that I can look forward to new goodies frequently regardless of which force I\'ve chosen.
As far as profit - a nominal profit isn\'t enough. You need to be demonstrating to investors that you can generate a strong return on that investment, percentage wise. Otherwise, the dollars are better spent/invested elsewhere where they can generate a higher % return.
james sequeira
New member
jarrett i agree with you on that pp are great i have just started warmachine my self.they try to release something for each different army.not like gw who release things for a month then dont release anything for 6 years for the army you have chosen
Spacemunkie
New member
100k is a piss in the ocean. It\'d only take petrol/diesel to go up to the 95p a litre mark again, and I\'m sure that would disappear. Bugger ethical production - if I was a shareholder I\'d want my profits back! Bet they couldn\'t afford to build production facilities in China even if they wanted to now.
new markets
I agree with the point that places like China can lower the costs of manufacturing, but I have to say that China as a market to sell GW product isn\'t quite as potentially profitable.
What people in the western nations tend to see is tons of people in China, hence they conclude that there must be tons of potential consumers and therefore tons of potential profit. What foreign investors are finding is quite the opposite. Why?
In the main, China doesn\'t have the same kinds of copyright laws that we do. This means that cheap knock-offs and intellectual property rights violations are the norm. Have a look at the record industry in China, brand-name clothing, etc. I recently saw a report claiming that there were more stores carrying pirated copies of music, movies, and software than the legit stuff.
Think about this. More than one person on this thread have already said that they would rather buy Reaper models to bulk up their armies as proxy GW models due to the cost. Imagine if there were factories pumping out blatent ripoffs and recasts of the GW sculpts, and then selling them for a quarter of the cost of the GW products.
Anyway, this is all beside the point. GW has already tried marketing to China, complete with a string of stores in Hong Kong. I worked at a GW store in Vancouver, Canada, and we imported a pile of chinese language versions of Fantasy since the chinese population is about 30% in this city. We sold a small handful of copies for the longest time, and only managed to get rid of the dead stock once we discounted it by 50% and our old clientele bought the boxes just to bulk up their existing armies. Last I heard, the Hong Kong branch of GW wasn\'t quite as successful as GW had hoped.
In any case, kudos for GW for trying like crazy to expand the gaming hobby to previously uncharted territory. They\'ve taken some serious risks, and all of this has cost them a pile of cash. Many of the other companies out there have grown only by cutting into GW\'s already established market. Everyone here has been talking about how GW is losing their old customers to PP and Rackham, has anyone considered that GW has been more concerned with making new gamers... I\'m thinking LotR is the best example. After all, lots of new gamers started with LotR, and LotR started showing up in lots of weird places, such as bookstore chains.
Give credit to GW for trying new things and going down new paths, but I agree that they should not neglect (or \"offend\") the older gamers, the ones that helped them build their company in the first place. In corporate-speak, they should protect their established markets first.
I agree with the point that places like China can lower the costs of manufacturing, but I have to say that China as a market to sell GW product isn\'t quite as potentially profitable.
What people in the western nations tend to see is tons of people in China, hence they conclude that there must be tons of potential consumers and therefore tons of potential profit. What foreign investors are finding is quite the opposite. Why?
In the main, China doesn\'t have the same kinds of copyright laws that we do. This means that cheap knock-offs and intellectual property rights violations are the norm. Have a look at the record industry in China, brand-name clothing, etc. I recently saw a report claiming that there were more stores carrying pirated copies of music, movies, and software than the legit stuff.
Think about this. More than one person on this thread have already said that they would rather buy Reaper models to bulk up their armies as proxy GW models due to the cost. Imagine if there were factories pumping out blatent ripoffs and recasts of the GW sculpts, and then selling them for a quarter of the cost of the GW products.
Anyway, this is all beside the point. GW has already tried marketing to China, complete with a string of stores in Hong Kong. I worked at a GW store in Vancouver, Canada, and we imported a pile of chinese language versions of Fantasy since the chinese population is about 30% in this city. We sold a small handful of copies for the longest time, and only managed to get rid of the dead stock once we discounted it by 50% and our old clientele bought the boxes just to bulk up their existing armies. Last I heard, the Hong Kong branch of GW wasn\'t quite as successful as GW had hoped.
In any case, kudos for GW for trying like crazy to expand the gaming hobby to previously uncharted territory. They\'ve taken some serious risks, and all of this has cost them a pile of cash. Many of the other companies out there have grown only by cutting into GW\'s already established market. Everyone here has been talking about how GW is losing their old customers to PP and Rackham, has anyone considered that GW has been more concerned with making new gamers... I\'m thinking LotR is the best example. After all, lots of new gamers started with LotR, and LotR started showing up in lots of weird places, such as bookstore chains.
Give credit to GW for trying new things and going down new paths, but I agree that they should not neglect (or \"offend\") the older gamers, the ones that helped them build their company in the first place. In corporate-speak, they should protect their established markets first.
Retail outlets...
Personally, I think their biggest problem was when they decided to open retail outlets instead of pushing their product through independents.
These stores are a HUGE overhead and I KNOW not all of them are covering their own expenses. I would bet that not many of them are.
The nail in that coffin was killing internet retail. Most, not all but most, manufacturers will make vastly more profit moving large amounts of merchandise to retailers as well as selling some direct at discounted prices, than they ever would setting up and running retail stores.
Quality-wise, I think they have gone somewhat downhill. Proportions are worse than ever; Detail is bigger and sometimes more abundant but at the same time less...well..detailed; and now they have started to dumb-down their plastics to be LESS poseable. Now obviously their new stuff is better (technically speaking) than the RT-era stuff, but I am not referring to those.
Some of their sculptors should just be fired, plain and simple... (Mr. Diaz, step away from the sculpting tool...)
I know alot of you folks will disagree with me, but as was said earlier, we will have to agree to disagree.
The fact also remains that there are many viable alternatives out there now. Most, not all but most, are cheaper by far than GW. Most, not all but most, have better games to support the purchasing of their miniatures.
**Mini-Rant**
GWs main games overall are shite. Do I want to play a science fiction game where the winning tactic is to load up on close combat weapons and get into hand-to-hand first? No, I don\'t.
Does it bother anyone else to constantly and consistently see characters and squads decked out with CC weapons? Drives me batty... lol
Specialist Games was the best idea that they have had since they decided to stop mainstream support on everything but 40K and Fantasy (and now LoTR) and they have all but killed it. Less and less given to SG every year... Shame too since this is where their best games are.
**Mini-Rant Over**
Anyway, I don\'t think their decline is attributable to any one decision. They have made a series of decisions over the past 10 or so years that I am sure looked good on paper but are now biting them in the ass.
We will never really know, until they go down and someone leaks the internal memos... Hehe.
Personally, I think their biggest problem was when they decided to open retail outlets instead of pushing their product through independents.
These stores are a HUGE overhead and I KNOW not all of them are covering their own expenses. I would bet that not many of them are.
The nail in that coffin was killing internet retail. Most, not all but most, manufacturers will make vastly more profit moving large amounts of merchandise to retailers as well as selling some direct at discounted prices, than they ever would setting up and running retail stores.
Quality-wise, I think they have gone somewhat downhill. Proportions are worse than ever; Detail is bigger and sometimes more abundant but at the same time less...well..detailed; and now they have started to dumb-down their plastics to be LESS poseable. Now obviously their new stuff is better (technically speaking) than the RT-era stuff, but I am not referring to those.
Some of their sculptors should just be fired, plain and simple... (Mr. Diaz, step away from the sculpting tool...)
I know alot of you folks will disagree with me, but as was said earlier, we will have to agree to disagree.
The fact also remains that there are many viable alternatives out there now. Most, not all but most, are cheaper by far than GW. Most, not all but most, have better games to support the purchasing of their miniatures.
**Mini-Rant**
GWs main games overall are shite. Do I want to play a science fiction game where the winning tactic is to load up on close combat weapons and get into hand-to-hand first? No, I don\'t.
Does it bother anyone else to constantly and consistently see characters and squads decked out with CC weapons? Drives me batty... lol
Specialist Games was the best idea that they have had since they decided to stop mainstream support on everything but 40K and Fantasy (and now LoTR) and they have all but killed it. Less and less given to SG every year... Shame too since this is where their best games are.
**Mini-Rant Over**
Anyway, I don\'t think their decline is attributable to any one decision. They have made a series of decisions over the past 10 or so years that I am sure looked good on paper but are now biting them in the ass.
We will never really know, until they go down and someone leaks the internal memos... Hehe.
james sequeira
New member
there wouldnt be much market for gw stuff in china because it would cost them a weeks wages for a blister :wow:
This is a very interesting topic to me. Here\'s some of my thoughts:
I agree with this in that GW has been the giant feeder to the wargaming industry. I wouldn\'t say kudos for \'taking one for the team\' because it was of course in their own interest but I definitely appreciate GW and their struggle against the new, fierce competition.
About raising prices, CEO\'s get paid a salary, they don\'t own the profits, the investors do. The price raising decisions were made in the best interest to keep the company growing and making money for all the stockholders. I think GW has definitely realized that their company\'s growth has reached a plateau and who knows, maybe they\'ll need to downsize some time in the future.
I agree and disagree. Profit is still profit. Everyone involved in the production of LOTR earned a paycheck and had employment. The only thing is that profit isn\'t still profit in the eyes of stockholders. Any change in net profit hurts or helps stock value (and the investors\' portfolios).
I don\'t really understand the comments that say the sculpting of GW minis has gone downhill because that just isn\'t true (maybe more boring or less charactful, as some have said, but not inferior sculpting). Please correct me if I\'m wrong but the old citadel minis look like crap compared to the new stuff. Sure, the poses are sometimes laughable, especially with the lotr hobbits, but the sculptors are definitely talented and have good control and detailing abilities. I think the old minis had better poses because they didn\'t sell as many. They could afford to spend more time getting the minis out of the molds but now, selling who knows how many of each figure, they have to have those suckers fly out of the molds without having to tease them out.
I agree with this in that GW has been the giant feeder to the wargaming industry. I wouldn\'t say kudos for \'taking one for the team\' because it was of course in their own interest but I definitely appreciate GW and their struggle against the new, fierce competition.
About raising prices, CEO\'s get paid a salary, they don\'t own the profits, the investors do. The price raising decisions were made in the best interest to keep the company growing and making money for all the stockholders. I think GW has definitely realized that their company\'s growth has reached a plateau and who knows, maybe they\'ll need to downsize some time in the future.
Originally posted by Modderrhu
Yes, I agree that one would expect a bigger return from such a massive turnover. But still, profit is profit. Are they able to cover their running costs? Yes. Are they able to meet their obligations? Yes. While GW is able to keep its creditors happy, pay its staff and buy the raw materials, it remains a profitable business.Originally posted by Spacemunkie
If I sell 60 million quids worth of gear, I expect to make a little more cash than 100k. Shit-street beckons if they can\'t drastically reduce their overheads and knock their stuff out cheaper.
With such a pitiful profit compared to outlay, GW certainly isn\'t growing. But that doesn\'t mean they\'re in shit street. What it does mean, is that soon they might find themselves in a non-profitable situation due to PP\'s and Rackham\'s burgeoning growth. If GW don\'t pick up their socks, then their flagging profit is an indication of the future, but certainly not the present.
They\'ve still got more coming in than going out.
I agree and disagree. Profit is still profit. Everyone involved in the production of LOTR earned a paycheck and had employment. The only thing is that profit isn\'t still profit in the eyes of stockholders. Any change in net profit hurts or helps stock value (and the investors\' portfolios).
I don\'t really understand the comments that say the sculpting of GW minis has gone downhill because that just isn\'t true (maybe more boring or less charactful, as some have said, but not inferior sculpting). Please correct me if I\'m wrong but the old citadel minis look like crap compared to the new stuff. Sure, the poses are sometimes laughable, especially with the lotr hobbits, but the sculptors are definitely talented and have good control and detailing abilities. I think the old minis had better poses because they didn\'t sell as many. They could afford to spend more time getting the minis out of the molds but now, selling who knows how many of each figure, they have to have those suckers fly out of the molds without having to tease them out.
My god, he would be pretty much the LAST sculptor I would suggest GW drop. He\'s done some awesome minis, he can do space marines and females as well as Jez, he did the Slann magepriest, that cool necron lord, heaps of good stuff. About the only bad thing he\'s done is the new Tau allies, those insecty things and even those aren\'t too bad now I\'ve seen some close up pics.
