On Games Workshop, Intellectual Property and Anti-Trust Law

[Shadzar]

call alliance games or allegiance games one of those. and they will tell you they are not allowed to sell to retails unless you have a B&M store, AND can provide pictures of it.

i however didnt get my supply from a GW supplier, but form another RETAILER! and they even sell thing online, and didnt see me as a threat.

as the whole purpose of me doing it is in my area you gotta drive 2 hours to buy GW stuff. or mail order it.
so i figured i would get my MCoR and buy the stuff needed and sell for marginal profit. then my game group went belly up and i still got $2,-3,000 worth of GW stuff.

luckily i just sold 10 assault marines for $30. (would have been more at 30% off i know, but i didnt charge for the jumppacks as he didnt want them so i gave him a lower price to open the boxes and give them back to me.)

maybe my luck has changed. as i found MANY ways around GW policy.

if nothing else for the simple fact that when i have the \"personal tangile property\" to sell. it IS MY property now, and i can do what ever i want to with it. including but not limited to selling it online with a picture, or even wiping my :moon: with it. cause i own it now, NOT GW.

oh yeah give me a search engine and a rainy day and i will look up the oddest things online. i am not afarid to know the facts before i pass judgement, C E

 

[Drake Farstrider]

Would not a house be considered B&M, or does it actually need to be a retail property?

The reason I ask is because there was a comic shop in my area, that had a retail location, then moved his shop into his basement. As he sold comiics, he would of gotten them from Diamond (which essentialy owns Alliance Game).

 

[Commissar Elvis]

The problem with that is that you get into a zoning issue. Neither my house nor my partner\'s house is zoned for commercial use, and that\'s a big no-no in this county.

My local LGS\' bread and butter is also comics so while on the one hand I don\'t want to compete with him, on the other hand, it wouldn\'t put a huge dent in his sales. Anyone who games there that\'s hard-core into modelling and so forth buys a lot of stuff online - the owner was actually complaining about that to me one day as I was in there buying a, uh...copy of White Dwarf.

Second, most of the distributors want to know if you have a \"retail storefront\", which would not qualify as \"I run it out of my basement.\"

And we can\'t have basements in Florida...the ground water is only like 4 feet underground.

 

[Shadzar]

the whole thing i was told is...

\"you must have a brick and mortor store to allow people to come play games at so people arent just selling the stuff out of their basement\"

thus you will never find GW at Wal-Mart as they dont have a place for people to play at.

gee i know a LOT of places that sell GW but dont have place for people to play. and that is even shown on GW site under the RTT locations and such. so how can they; without being hypocrits; say you HAVE to have a place to allow people to play?

they claim it is so it will further the game and support the gaming community.

ummm...wouldnt lower prices and the ability of such that more people can afford the product increase the size of the gaming community and likewise the sales of ALL retailers? B&M and internet?

 

[Drake Farstrider]

Damn those zoning issues! I had not even thought about it. Oh well it was worth a thought. Well I guess you could sell other Game lines as opposed to GW and Armorcast. Although if they have the sell only to B&M store policy, so may some of the other companies. I know that in the past soem game companies would not sell direct to the retailer. Something about agreements with the distributors.

 

[Shadzar]

yeah the distribs get it staright form the manufacturer not from GW US.

but either way they are trying to promote the gaming industry by limiting sales availability, and pricing things such that no one can afford them on a constant basis.

makes me think everyone in UK is rich since that is where all the prices originate.

specially since they sell $0.50 worth of plastic for $55 called a land raider.

cause i can get the same amount of plastic in 4 of them in a 10 foot length of 1/2 inch PVC pipe that cost $2.

and they need to consider they are making MODELS. and they are no where near as close to the price of standard models. and some of the tamiya and revell models are a LOT better sculpts for half the price.

too bad i cant use my Gundam 01 as a Tau \'crisis\' suit or i would show up with a army full at any tournament.

and speaking of kinda off subject but still pertaining to GW sales theory....

why would someone need to pay $20 to enter a tournament at gamesday, and still have to pay $40 to get in to gamesday.
$60 to enter one tournament?!?!?!?!

ok trying to do business is one thing, but GW....

i got some ocean front property in arizona for the CEO of GW to buy if he/she wants it.

along with that GW if the only mini game company that forces its player to buy mountains of rules weekly/monthy to continue playing the game.

GW just doesnt care about the games as it says, cause they dont listen to the gamers ideas or suggestions. they make the game THEY want. and this does not suport that they want to help the gaming community in any way, shape or form. but instead they only want to help themselves.

who do they think they are lying to?

the game rules are always changing cause the novels. the minis are changing based on those rules. the novels change based on events such as GD and RTTs.

a never ending cycle of nonsense, where the novels and \"fluff\" should have nothing to do with the game mechanics.

ok rant mode off. but the main point is. IF GW cared about the gaming community and its gamers, they would change their practices and try to get more people playing with more affordable merchandise.

selling one thing for $50 and making $40 profit is not always better than selling 10 things for $5 each and making $4 each.

 

[Ebonbuddha]

You had me until this statement. Novels and \"fluff\" (I hate that word. I prefer background.) have everything to do with a game. If it didn\'t, you\'d just have a guy walking and swinging a rectangle piece of metal with a point. Sorry, but that is just too PS2 bland and boring. That\'s why it\'s called flavour text.

I think it would be cool to take ideas from the novels and make them rules for play and publish them in White Dwarf. You know, like they use to do.

Originally posted by Shadzar
a never ending cycle of nonsense, where the novels and \"fluff\" should have nothing to do with the game mechanics.

 

[Shadzar]

but you are missing my point entirely.

it would be ok if the novels and such made comtributions to the game. but to change the whole rules because of the, and the game mechanics if something utterly stupid.

lets say the new venerable dreads that are for everyone and not just the space wolves. that is ok addition.

but removing the squats cause they stopped wanting to write about them in the novels it a total lack of respect for its customers.

so the space dwarves were out of the novels.

that should have nothing to do with the game. people played them and bought them. they should have their rules still in the current edition.

see the difference?

 

[Ebonbuddha]

You\'re new. You will learn.

Bythe way, what GW miniatures are you playing with that cost only $2-$3? ???

Originally posted by Itchy
But Mr. Finn... to play devil\'s advocate i must say, those were character models you bought. The bulk of the 4DK Army is made in troups, who cost a reasonable 2 to 3 bucks (american... local, for me at least) a peice. Very reasonable IMHO. 25USD for 10 of my Wolvies. And if you don\'t like the price for the bigger pieces (like titans and terran) then make your own! That\'s how i see it. Building a 4DK army didn\'t cost me my soul to the devil... and the game system\'s mighty fun. Oh, and the WYSIWYG rule\'s just plain silly. In fact, i\'m a WYSIWYDG (what you see is what you DON\'T get) warrior http://www.signorellis.com/warhammer.html That top paragraph pretty much explains it all

 

[Shadzar]

who is new? i am guessing you are refering to me, but hard to tell since you reply above the quoted text which is bad practice.

i have played 40k for 3 years now. and D&D for 23.

well lets say i stopped playing 40k after i learned what GW was about.

the only game i still play that has their name on it is Hero Quest.

 

[Ebonbuddha]

From my understanding, the Squats were taken out of the rules because they couldn\'t think of any new rules for them. Not to mention they didn\'t like the name Squat. I read an interview with Jervis Johnson about it.

By the way I\'m not agreeing with them. They could have kept the Squats. They could have easily used the rules for the tau for them.If I remember correctly, the
Squats were very shooty. They just didn\'t have the Gundam suits. They had Exo-Armour that was like terminator armour.

Originally posted by Shadzar
but you are missing my point entirely.

it would be ok if the novels and such made comtributions to the game. but to change the whole rules because of the, and the game mechanics if something utterly stupid.

lets say the new venerable dreads that are for everyone and not just the space wolves. that is ok addition.

but removing the squats cause they stopped wanting to write about them in the novels it a total lack of respect for its customers.

so the space dwarves were out of the novels.

that should have nothing to do with the game. people played them and bought them. they should have their rules still in the current edition.

see the difference?

 

[Ebonbuddha]

If you look at the quote, it shows I was quoting Itchy. So, it would make sense that I was talking to Itchy.

Originally posted by Shadzar
who is new? i am guessing you are refering to me, but hard to tell since you reply above the quoted text which is bad practice.

i have played 40k for 3 years now. and D&D for 23.

well lets say i stopped playing 40k after i learned what GW was about.

the only game i still play that has their name on it is Hero Quest.

 

[Shadzar]

If you look at the quote, it shows I was quoting Itchy. So, it would make sense that I was talking to Itchy.

Originally posted by Shadzar
who is new? i am guessing you are refering to me, but hard to tell since you reply above the quoted text which is bad practice.

i have played 40k for 3 years now. and D&D for 23.

well lets say i stopped playing 40k after i learned what GW was about.

the only game i still play that has their name on it is Hero Quest.

here is another funny no-no of theirs.

Conversions

Conversions are a major aspect of the hobby, although in intellectual property terms, they also constitute a major infringement. However, we are certainly not about to stop people making cool conversions of our products, although, there are certain things to keep in mind:

Please do not combine our intellectual properties with IP owned by any third parties.
Your conversions should be one-time, unique masterpieces of hobby goodness. Do not create a production run of conversions for sale. Whilst infringing our IP, this is also simply not hobby.

ok thats it too hell with GW. they trying to dicatate what you can do with a model once you bought it.

next thing they will say it is illegal to paint minis using paints other than GW.

 

[praetorian0_1]

That\'s cominglol- just watch game events make that rule now

 

[Ebonbuddha]

I have never been to a GT or Gamesday. But isn\'t that already teh rule to play in their tourneys? I could swear it already was. Then again you\'re talking to someone who fell in love with the game back in \'86.

Damn I\'m old.lol

 

[Shadzar]

forget playing in gamesday tourney.

$20 entry fee into tourney
$40 entry fee into gamesday

the tourney takes up pretty much the whole day so....

$60 to enter a tourney?!?!?! forget that!

 

[Braveheart712]

@ Elvis - Sorry for the scare earlier. I like the name and was trying to make a take on the old \"Elvis has left the building\" annoncement. Keep taking care of business E!

@ Shadzar - I am impressed and you my friend have definitely done you homework. I am not a big fan of GW in any way, yes I do use their product line, but I do not like many of their corporate based practices. That being said I do see where they have the right to protect the pricepoint of their product. Whether what they are doing is 100% correct, but there are a few things that they could do in the free market here to circumvent this. First they could sell to their distributers at a sliding scale, one price for brick and mortar, another for IP sellers. This is perfectly legal. I work in printing and every company brokers its own price for raw materials and service. GW could broker a seperate price for both \"solid\" stores and \"etheral\" stores. GW could punish stores that sell lower than it likess by raising their distribution price to these stores. Yes it would take some monitoring by GW, but the net result would be more money in GW pockets as well. Worst of all, this for of business is perfectly legal. I am not aware of any law that requires a distrubuter to have a consistent price to its retail clients. Secondly, and far more scary, GW could just pull all its product and only sell through its retail and online store, period. This would mean no more local sales, etc, and I am sure GW would fund some new stores in areas that need them (simple market economics, filling a demand with service). But if GW did this, this would spell the end for many local stores that depend on GW sales to stay afloat. Most local stores could not weather the storm of the loss of a big portion of their sales while they grow their other gaming lines. GW would also have an adjustment phase as well, but with its larger access to capital resources would eventually come back out on top. Yes, we all sit at our keyboard and preach about the ills of the suits at GW (I know I have) but simply they are running a business. Many of their decisions are made to protect their product line and their markets, our approval is only necessary if we wish to continue to purchasae their product. I do repect that you Shadzar no longer wish to support GW, but I believe GW\'s marketing policy is sound, maybe not popular, and it will insure the survival of the company.

Lastly, while $20 entry fee and $40 touney fee sounds like alot (and it is), think of it like this $60 for the whole day. How much is it to see a 90 minute show watching Britney Spears or Madonna lip sink their tired old garbage? A Rolling Stones concert to watch the nurses push out Mick and Keith in their wheelchairs will cost you a whole hell of a lot more too. Its all about choices, if $60 is too much ( I wish it was cheper as well ) stay at home, but if you want to play that is the price we have to pay.

 

[Shadzar]

well i kinda had to do my homework seeing i was one of the online stores that was shut down due to their criminal business practices.

 

[Braveheart712]

Shadzar, I am very sorry to hear about that. Again I did see your point until I talked to a brick and mortar store owner who would have folded until the new policy came about. And yes, I admit I would like a box of space marines for $10, not $40, but I guess that will not happen right?

 

[No Such Agency]

Lastly, while $20 entry fee and $40 touney fee sounds like alot (and it is), think of it like this $60 for the whole day. How much is it to see a 90 minute show watching Britney Spears or Madonna lip sink their tired old garbage? A Rolling Stones concert to watch the nurses push out Mick and Keith in their wheelchairs will cost you a whole hell of a lot more too. Its all about choices, if $60 is too much ( I wish it was cheper as well ) stay at home, but if you want to play that is the price we have to pay.

The Stones, Madonna and Britney are overpriced too, IMO. I doubt that barring any sudden lottery wins, I\'ll ever pay \"statium concert\" prices to see a musical artist (even my musical Goddess Sarah McLachlan is commanding $80-90/ticket now alas... so no Sarah for me). I don\'t disagree with the idea that you get a lot for that $60 Gamesday Tourney pass, but I suspect it is VERY profitable, just to attend what is essentially a promotional event advertising GW.

ok thats it too hell with GW. they trying to dicatate what you can do with a model once you bought it.

Peace, good Shadzar, peace. You speak of nothing. Those are the rules for entering GW\'s events like the Demons. They run the event, they make the rules. They\'re not trying to tell you what you can do with their product in your own home or any other contest not run by them. Recasting is always illegal though, If I recall correctly (though I heartily advocate it if you have the resources to do it and need lots of one bit or something just don\'t enter those minis in any GW tourney or contest!).