Historical minis and all that jazz...

[BloodyBucketPainting]

Having posted a few minis here, and having perused this sites wonderful array of pics for some time...I noticed something: Not very many historical minis get posted here in wargaming scale. Oh, the occasional showpiece 54mm or larger gets posted, but there is little in the way of miniatures used for historical wargaming. Often, those that get posted in wargaming scale are tabletop quality or less because many historical wargamers are gamers first and painters second. I have met VERY few historical wargamers who devote much time to painting their minis.

I posted a few of my historical wargaming minis recently (should be up on CMON in a few days), and I was hoping to change, or at least expose to CMON some of the styles and looks of well painted, yet still tabletop (not Golden Demon level) historical minis. Maybe some of you have heard of Tom Weiss, Kevin Dallimore, or Steve Dean (who do things with historical minis I could only dream). These guys are the best. They make historical minis exciting and beautiful.

Just wondering what those who frequent CMON\'s conceptions and opinions on this part of our hobby might be. Do you like historical minis, even if you don\'t game with them? Do you think historical minis can be painted well enough to warrant a few ooh\'s and ahh\'s? Or do you think the painters craft can only really be showcased in fantasy/Sci-fi figs? Do historical minis stand alone, or are they best seen as armies or units to have more impact? Even though you can\'t do NMM or some of the other effects on historicals, there is something beautiful about a well painted Army from the Napoleonic era marching with Flags unfurled!

Just wondering, I am open to all opnions on this.

 

[Sand Rat]

Hmm, overall, I would say that a good paint job is a good paint job, regaurdless of what type of mini it is applied to. Also, I think if you check Steve Dean regularily posts to this site. The only problem I see with historicals is the Accuracy Police - your paint is 1 shade inaccurate for the figure depicted, etc (and I have heard that argument made at conventions about historical minis - Napoleaonics and WWII).

 

[finn17]

An interesting question....

One I can answer quite easily though, with my own, honest opinion.

I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in historical minis. I like to let my imagination run riot and not be constrained in any way by convention or dogma.

I spent a few years painting historical subjects in my youth and I gave it up when some connoisseur picked up one of my vehicles and told me that the mud on it was the wrong colour. Never again, no sir.

I feel the same way about \'fanboys\'on this site who will spend an age telling you that a \'fantasy\' figure\' looks \'unrealistic\'!

I want to indulge my imagination and I am sorry, but toys oldiers just don\'t \'float my boat\' no matter how many flags are unfurled.

But that\'s just me.

 

[tooshy]

Style police

Hi BBP

I do collect a lot of fantasy and some sci-fi figures, but I also do like historical 25mm figures - I have some Napleaonics and ACW and also some of the early Dixon 25mm Samuari.

I also have quite a few of the Poste Militaire figures too 54mm - 75mm. However I agree with Steelcult in that the Accuracy Police (AP) can sometimes dampen your spirits \'cos you haven\'t used quite the right shade or tone of blue for a uniform!

I have a good appreciation for the quality of painting no matter what the figure is and I\'m not about to moan \"oh well, of course they didn\'t wear the green jackets until 1872....blah blah blah\".

At the end of the day, I like to paint figures and I try to paint them as realistically as I can BUT it has to be fun. Painting fantasy allows your imagination to run wild, however it\'s not with-out its own critics - and boy do they make me mad - no-one is likely to have seen an orc so if someone decides to paint one sky-blue-pink then that\'s cool too lol

 

[Nomis]

Blimey I started this reply when there were no respondents - I\'ve just previewed it and 3 of you hawks have already answered!

Welcome to the forums BloodyBucket- I mildly hanker after some of the Foundry Napoleonic and other Euro wars minis but don\'t have the time/room/inclination to get them. I have painted a number of their wild west range in the past - and liked them but prefer the more outrageous types posted here -

guess there are other sites that cater for the historicals?

I agree about the Accuracy Police - but don\'t we have that here - eg what colour should I paint my Blood Angels Finn?



lollollol

 

[finn17]

Ahemm, ahem

Originally posted by Nomis
what colour should I paint my Blood Angels Finn?
lollollol

Ready...? Brace yourself...

Red, you bastard, RED!!!

lollollollollol

 

[Nomis]

Red, you bastard, RED!!

lollollollollol

Sorry I didn\'t offer my congrats on the 1k posts - thank god it was all electronic - how many trees would you have used up otherwise?

 

[BloodyBucketPainting]

Thanks for the responses guys!

I agree that the Accuracy Police (AP) are a bit irritating. I also think they are often just downright ridiculous. In most cases, with the variety of wool lots, dyes, manufacturers, wear and tear, fading, distribution, and other factors, there is often no exact correct shade for any given uniform. There are correct parameters, but never an exactly correct shade. When one goes back further in history (even to the Napoleonic era)inadequete records and a lack of photo, painting, litho, or real examples make getting an exact shade and exact distributions quite open to interpretation. Take German Field Gray for example: there are many shades of field gray, from dark green, through grays, into blueish grays all the way into muddy browns. Anyone who tells you that your German\'s aren\'t painted proper field gray is full of it. Granted, they didn\'t wear pink, but there is a wide parameter for just that uniform. This is also true of Prussian Blue. Reports and evidence suggest anything from Black, all the way into a bright blue. The AP who says that certain uniforms were issued at certain times and yadda yadda yadda are also often wrong. They think that just because a certain lithograph (or Osprey book) from the period shows a certain uniform in a certain color and such that they have the final authority. They forget that not all units were issued such uniforms, that they were often dyed by a variety of makers and that they also wore out fast, leading to scrounging (especially on campaign). If someone is telling you that your German field gray is wrong, that your Prussian Blue is too dark, and that the mud on your vehicle is the wrong color...tell them to kiss your a**!

No one likes a know it all, and historical miniature wargaming has its share, but thankfully most of the community hates them and avoids them like the plague.

Hopefully CMON will see more lovely examples of painted minis from your weird historical wargaming cousins. We are all a little daft.

Wait, I\'ve been painting my Blood Angels blue all this time? Crap, I guess they meant OXYGENATED blood. D\'oh!

 

[schobbies]

Historical Figs

Hey guys, great discussion going on. I totally agree with BBP that there are too many \"Color Police\" out there in the Historical field. These are the same people that ruin a good movie with their BS about that it is not \"historically correct\", How do you know? Where you around then?
Anyway, color difference is an easy thing to explain, different manufacturers of equipment, dye lot especially, sun fading, and after 1 month on campaign a uniform is ruined and then compare this with the new replacements coming in and you have quite a range of color.
I am mainly a historical painter and I think that my scores on fantasy figs suffer from this. I still try to portray a fantasy figure in a somewhat \"realistic\" fashion, this is just my style.
But if you want to see some truly incredible historical figures take a look at the Pegaso site gallery http://www.pegasomodels.com/gallery_en.asp
CMON\'s own Austrian Fredy has some of his work on there as well.
Take care
Steve

 

[Sturmhalo]

It would be nice to see a few more well painted historics. I\'ve got a few on here, but not as many as I\'d like. I guess one thing that puts people off is having to research the subject before they can do a faithful paint job. At least with fantasy or sci-fi you can just start daubing your models with all sorts of revolting colours without all that extra preliminary work! I must have spent a hell of a lot of money on books over the years to be \'able\' to paint WWII Germans as accurately as I\'d like. But then again I don\'t mind that because my enthusiasm for the subject is undeminished. I guess you have to be really passionate about your historics to want to do them justice.

Just a point on the accuracy police. I do think that historics should be painted as accurately as possible. We are dealing with actual history here and not just GW dogma (your Blood Angels aren\'t red enough... blah, blah, blah....). However, in miniature there is a lot of room for variation. First of all who can argue that your field grey is wrong when you have to highlight it so much to match the small scale. Or when you consider that a field grey uniform can look a completely different colour dependent on the light source it\'s viewed under. Then of course there is fading that all materials will suffer from to some extent. Consider the fact that during the campaigns in North Africa, the sun was so strong that it could bleach a sand coloured field cap almost white over time! And finally there is variation in manufacture that always throws up slightly different shades of the same colour.

Of course, accuracy can only really be achieved if there is an actual record of a particular uniform. WWII modellers are quite lucky as there is a whole wealth of surviving militaria out there to be viewed in museums, private collections, and of course books. That combined with efficious contemporary record keeping makes life pretty easy really. It\'s only when you go so far back that actual examples no longer exist, when you can argue that a tapestry or illustration makes a uniform open to interpretation.

By the way, I can\'t watch a WWII movie anymore without pointing out the inaccuracies of uniform or that as usual the Germans only appear to have access to captured US vehicles! In a way history has ruined my televisual enjoyment!

lol

 

[Flashman14]

Several digressions

I don\'t think I\'ve ever met any APer \'s here. Since the vast majority submit SciFi/Fant I don\'t think any of us who\'d post a historical would get offensive comments in regards to uniform color. This just hasn\'t the place for those folks to hang ...

Historicals though have a nice structure - the rules are already laid out and it\'s more of an exercise in application then imagination but you know what? That\'s OK!! Maybe it\'s even more challenging to paint a guy up accurately then the anything goes way . . . consider it a challenge? Mostly we paint certain figs because it look cool -and there is no deficiency of cool minis and sculpts in Historicals.

But there is a sense overall that Fantasy minis are art and that Historicals are for gaming. My experience has been that most historical folks (over 51%) want to just get troops on the table - the game itself is more the appeal then the artistry.

For myself, I want it all - being raised on Wargames Illustrated my goal is to have the best looking figures on the best looking terrain. The rules are negotiable but, bottom line, they need to be fun. GW sets the best example in the Non Historical ranges I think and I wish the historical community could unify enough to do something similar.

One thing that would help is to have a one stop shop thing - or bundled kits like Essex does for DBA only include a real paint guide - maybe the paints themselves. Who wants to trek all over the place to gather up all you would need to get started? That\'s where GW excels.

But I\'m with ya 110% BBP . . . I\'ll submit mine when I get \'em done . . I\'ve been doing qausi-historicals for a while now but have more Napoleonics coming up . . .

Oh, one more thing - I\'m not aware of any equivalent site that is themed Historical - prolly the Miniatures Page is the closest and that isn\'t even very. As such, this is as good a place to start one as any. I\'ve tried to cross-polinate both TMPand CMON - to allow historical folks to see what great painting can look like but also hoping to get good painters into the historical realm where IMO they are desperately needed. Historicals in general need a big kick in the WOW factor that Fantasy has dialed . . .

 

[finn17]

Just a thought...

I know I am going to get a kick in the pants for this, because of getting the best of both worlds you also possibly get the worst.

But, anyone interested in a weird and whacky crossover should look at the Flintloque range by Alternative Armies.

http://www.flintloque.com/index.htm

Napoleonics with a difference. The English are Orcs, The French are Elves, The Russians are Undead, The Italians are Toads, the Egyptians are Otters. There are also dogs, Ogres, pigs you name it, they\'re there.

Real tongue-in-cheek stuff with a great sense of humour.

Any one who is interested in Bernard Cornwell\'s \'Sharpe\' is also well catered for with a whole set of Sharpe characters.

AsI said though, this is unlikely to appeal to purists in either camp.:bouncy:

 

[Flashman14]

no kick from me! But you\'re right . . I don\'t know who those appeal to??! lol My turn to get kicked!

 

[finn17]

Well, I have a confession to make..hehe..

I am afraid I have bought a lot of their stuff, just cos I love their whacky sense of humour. They are also a doddle to paint, about as far removed from Rackham as it is possible to getlol.

I also think they are cute in a lumpy sort of way. They have been going for a long while but you don\'t see many of them about. I wonder whylol:bouncy:

 

[Sturmhalo]

Originally posted by Flashman14


But there is a sense overall that Fantasy minis are art and that Historicals are for gaming. My experience has been that most historical folks (over 51%) want to just get troops on the table - the game itself is more the appeal then the artistry.

For myself, I want it all - being raised on Wargames Illustrated my goal is to have the best looking figures on the best looking terrain. The rules are negotiable but, bottom line, they need to be fun. GW sets the best example in the Non Historical ranges I think and I wish the historical community could unify enough to do something similar.

Exactly! I\'ve also noticed that manufacturers are willing to cut corners when it comes to making historics, which they don\'t do with their other ranges! I guess they think that seeing as they\'re destined for \'wargamers\' they don\'t have to be the best sculpts in the world (also, have you seen the quality of painting that historic gamers will accept?).

I really want to see someone put out a truly excellent range of historics (WWII in my case!) that matches the best fantasy/sci-fi models for quality. If I could sculpt I\'d do it myself. Either that or I need to totally dominate a great sculptor and force him (her!) to meet my demands (or I\'ll whip them and tie them up and... err... too much information... walls have ears and all that!).

By the way Finn. I didn\'t realise Flintloque was still going! You learn something new every day.

 

[finn17]

It\'s hard to say nowadays...

Originally posted by Sturmhalo
By the way Finn. I didn\'t realise Flintloque was still going! You learn something new every day.

It seems really weird. You have a company like I-Kore who have an extremely popular range and yet their web presence is dismal to say the least. (I should add that their on-line store has now sputtered into life again). And then there is a company like Alternative Armies, which I really admire. They have been going for ages, and yet most people have never heard of them, and their website is (relatively) fantastic.

I have a real soft spot for flintloque as it makes absolutely no pretence at being serious. Huge range of miniatures as well.

 

[Tuubje]

Originally posted by Sturmhalo
By the way, I can\'t watch a WWII movie anymore without pointing out the inaccuracies of uniform or that as usual the Germans only appear to have access to captured US vehicles! In a way history has ruined my televisual enjoyment!

I have a brother in the military and he has the same problem. While watching Black Hawk Down (a quite accurate yet overly dramatic movie) he could immediatly point out several mistakes.

Originally posted by schobbies
I am mainly a historical painter and I think that my scores on fantasy figs suffer from this. I still try to portray a fantasy figure in a somewhat \"realistic\" fashion, this is just my style.

I don\'t think this is a flaw at all, however it does depend on the mini. Imperial gaurd looks fantastic with a WWII scheme. While Eldar would just look silly.

At the Pegaso site I was given a kick in the head by some of the \"Masters\" there, fantastic work, I especially like this Ashigaru.

 

[Sturmhalo]

I rather liked AA\'s range of sci-fi models. The Crusaders or something weren\'t they. Rather nice models and a good alternative to space marines. They did some space ork types that were supposed to be pretty good but I never saw the actual models for those.

 

[finn17]

Still there my friend:

http://www.flintloque.com/acatalog/ALTERNATIVE_ARMIES_ALTERNATIVE_28mm_SCIENCE_FICTION___ATTRITION_48.html

You might also be interested in these WWII minis

http://www.flintloque.com/acatalog/ALTERNATIVE_ARMIES_20mm_WORLD_WAR_2_34.html

:bouncy::flip::bouncy:

 

[Sturmhalo]

Some interesting stuff indeed. Must resist temptation to buy!!! Especially seeing as I\'m moving house next month!