Dark Eldar
- Thread starter blackbolt
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IdofEntity
New member
I might be a complete nit, but it sounds as if the only scenario's you are talking about consist of annihilation. Do you ever play games with objectives that don't consist of outright annihilation? You might have a chance of winning those.
To be fair, you've got a firepower extreme army versus a close combat extreme army. It's going to be brutal for one of you, and deployment will play a massive role in that. Against an army like Tyranids or perhaps Eldar I don't think it would be as clear cut of a game.
To help, you might want to have kroot available to at least annoy those CC units for a turn while you get your fire warriors out of there. I doubt you'll have an easy fight no matter what tactic you employ, but I'm willing to bet if you put your mind to it and get decent (not amazing) rolls you can win.
To be fair, you've got a firepower extreme army versus a close combat extreme army. It's going to be brutal for one of you, and deployment will play a massive role in that. Against an army like Tyranids or perhaps Eldar I don't think it would be as clear cut of a game.
To help, you might want to have kroot available to at least annoy those CC units for a turn while you get your fire warriors out of there. I doubt you'll have an easy fight no matter what tactic you employ, but I'm willing to bet if you put your mind to it and get decent (not amazing) rolls you can win.
I'm about to pick up dark eldar, and after what I've read about the DE, it seems to me that Tau will be one of the hardest armies for us to face.
Why?
Long range, high strength.
Even a regular firewarrior can pen a raider on a 6... considering we're open topped, even those glancing fives will hurt. And that's from one of your weaker guns.
I think the trick as a Tau player will be to spread your army out, and be ready to leg it/re-deploy if anything gets too close.
Once our transports are popped, feel free to snipe us to death with your 30" range.
//Calle
Why?
Long range, high strength.
Even a regular firewarrior can pen a raider on a 6... considering we're open topped, even those glancing fives will hurt. And that's from one of your weaker guns.
I think the trick as a Tau player will be to spread your army out, and be ready to leg it/re-deploy if anything gets too close.
Once our transports are popped, feel free to snipe us to death with your 30" range.
//Calle
IdofEntity
New member
Another thought occurred to me.
You're playing a firing line arrangement against a light transport army. That's not a bad idea, especially considering how devestating a Pulse Rifle barrage is, but I think there is a better way. See, a Tau Fire Warrior line like that deals with an issue that an Imperial Guard Line deals with regularly. You're racing the clock on softening up his lines enough to absorb the shock of CC. What Tau have that Imperial Guardsmen don't have (aside from a better armor save) is a far more mobile army selection. You have Battlesuits!
Battlesuits can be equipped in such a robust way that they are the BANE of transports. They have mid-high strength weaponry at their disposal with moderate AP, and multiple shots. They have pretty nice armor saves. They have speed. They're expensive, but as long as you use that speed and don't engage the enemy you'll be alright. Take a small unit of Shas'vre Battlesuits with Plasma Rifle, Missile Pods and multi-targeters, and dedicate them to breaking transports. Once the transport is down don't even consider the contents, simply move on to the next transport. You won't devestate his numbers, but you'll slow him down while keeping your risk down. If an eilte unit or HQ has the speed or chance to corner them, they have high-powered weapons to try and assassinate a heavy points target.
Using your Fire Warriors, though not as many, take the time to pelt any transports that slip through your shock team of battlesuits. Any DE that get within firing range are dealing with a nasty barrage of Pulse Rifles. Play keep away and don't worry about getting into range for Rapid Fire. From what I've seen a DE opponent needs to close the distance in order to be devestating. Delay him by moving out of range and taking potshots.
Another two ideas for dealing with Transports: Skyray Missile Platform; Broadside Battlesuits.
1) Skyray - Ability to hit multiple targets with seeker missiles - Pretty much enough said
2) Broadside - I'd only recommend this if you're playing on a full 6x4 or larger playing surface, and only if you can tuck them away from the bulk of enemy with a clear line of fire. Those twin-linked railguns only need to hit to penetrate. They WRECK transports. A two battlesuit team is more than enough to take down any transport they'll have to throw at you, and it's not as if they're completely defenseless up close. If your opponent is using a bunch of cheap transports with stock infantry, stick with standard battlesuits. If they have an elite unit in a better fortified transport (or one that the general is running interference for) let your railguns rain sulfurous, supercharged, magnetized, mass-driven doom upon them.
Tau are built to handle transport armies by deploying specialized battlesuits. Even their stealth suits should be enough to give a DE general deploying transports concern. Even seeing the ridiculous amount of CC attacks DE can throw out, I can see ways of dealing with them.
My advice is nowhere near perfect, but I honestly believe Tau have a better chance of dealing with DE than most armies out there.
You're playing a firing line arrangement against a light transport army. That's not a bad idea, especially considering how devestating a Pulse Rifle barrage is, but I think there is a better way. See, a Tau Fire Warrior line like that deals with an issue that an Imperial Guard Line deals with regularly. You're racing the clock on softening up his lines enough to absorb the shock of CC. What Tau have that Imperial Guardsmen don't have (aside from a better armor save) is a far more mobile army selection. You have Battlesuits!
Battlesuits can be equipped in such a robust way that they are the BANE of transports. They have mid-high strength weaponry at their disposal with moderate AP, and multiple shots. They have pretty nice armor saves. They have speed. They're expensive, but as long as you use that speed and don't engage the enemy you'll be alright. Take a small unit of Shas'vre Battlesuits with Plasma Rifle, Missile Pods and multi-targeters, and dedicate them to breaking transports. Once the transport is down don't even consider the contents, simply move on to the next transport. You won't devestate his numbers, but you'll slow him down while keeping your risk down. If an eilte unit or HQ has the speed or chance to corner them, they have high-powered weapons to try and assassinate a heavy points target.
Using your Fire Warriors, though not as many, take the time to pelt any transports that slip through your shock team of battlesuits. Any DE that get within firing range are dealing with a nasty barrage of Pulse Rifles. Play keep away and don't worry about getting into range for Rapid Fire. From what I've seen a DE opponent needs to close the distance in order to be devestating. Delay him by moving out of range and taking potshots.
Another two ideas for dealing with Transports: Skyray Missile Platform; Broadside Battlesuits.
1) Skyray - Ability to hit multiple targets with seeker missiles - Pretty much enough said
2) Broadside - I'd only recommend this if you're playing on a full 6x4 or larger playing surface, and only if you can tuck them away from the bulk of enemy with a clear line of fire. Those twin-linked railguns only need to hit to penetrate. They WRECK transports. A two battlesuit team is more than enough to take down any transport they'll have to throw at you, and it's not as if they're completely defenseless up close. If your opponent is using a bunch of cheap transports with stock infantry, stick with standard battlesuits. If they have an elite unit in a better fortified transport (or one that the general is running interference for) let your railguns rain sulfurous, supercharged, magnetized, mass-driven doom upon them.
Tau are built to handle transport armies by deploying specialized battlesuits. Even their stealth suits should be enough to give a DE general deploying transports concern. Even seeing the ridiculous amount of CC attacks DE can throw out, I can see ways of dealing with them.
My advice is nowhere near perfect, but I honestly believe Tau have a better chance of dealing with DE than most armies out there.
blackbolt
New member
i like your idea about the 3 tier system. crisis then fire warriors then BS. i think that might acctually work. oh and in objective games i just deploy masses of kroot and i generally win by stretching them across 2 objectives. works very well.
also would it be more profitable taking farsight or an ethereal + CS commander going agaisnt such a CC army.?
also would it be more profitable taking farsight or an ethereal + CS commander going agaisnt such a CC army.?
IdofEntity
New member
In my experience playing as Tau:
1) Ethereal - Too many points, too soft a target, and not enough bang for the cost.
2) Farsight - Only use in games with massive points. He's good, but not so much better that your tactics will depend on him. For a friendly game I'd say go at it and have fun. In a competitive game I'd probably advise against it.
DE has a couple of nasty ways to deal with your battlesuits, but to do it they sacrifice some of their anti-infantry role. If you're going to be facing a DE player a lot you're going to have to do what I always dread doing. Change your army composition and tactics with each game, but be flexible enough in your army composition to have a backup plan. It takes planning. Don't invest only in Battlesuits. Don't invest solely in Fire Warrior fire lines.
Most of all, don't let him anticipate your move. It sounds cliche and so vague that it doesn't sound like useful advice. Still if you can come up with a great anti-Transport strategy by using more specialized XV-88's, then your opponent will remember that for next game and deploy the weapons to annihilate your XV-88's. Some armies aren't as flexible (Necron comes to mind) while certain armies are notorious for flexibility. (Eldar, the bastards) DE seems to be on the more flexible side, so you have to keep your army composition fresh each time so he can't hammer out a great strategy each game.
The good news is most games shouldn't be boring rehashes of the same strategy. The bad news, you're going to lose some of those games...horribly. Just try to keep your win ratio over 50%, right?
I'm still trying to think of a reliable method of dealing with those stupid Jetbikes. Plasma on Battlesuits I suppose? That or try and nail them with a Pulse Rifle barrage.
I'll contemplate some more than try some mock scenarios.
blackbolt
New member
the reason i brought up ethereal is because of the dark eldar horrorfex and what not. it will allow all tau in LOS to reroll moral and on top i could give him a honor guard squad with +1 bs. also what do you think about vespids with marketlight backup. i ran the numbers from ML hits to end and with a 8 man squad killed a 6 man squad of incubi in one round of shooting. will the vespids and there speed give me an element of "unpredictability" that u mentioned?
IdofEntity
New member
My apologies for taking so long to formulate a coherent response.
When I first thought about it the morale bonus from the ethereal seemed like a decent reason for taking said Ethereal. The problem is that you'll be committing a large number of points to a unit that is soft, and causes horrible results should it die. The +1 BS honor guard seem nice, but again just aren't THAT spiffy. You've made a nice meaty target for your enemy to bite into, and cause serious repercussions for your army should they succeed. All to combat a tactic that your opponent may or may not use. You'd be overcommitting.
That being said, if you're playing against a less experienced player it might actually be a fantastic lure. People get stupid when they see an exposed HQ, and will take really stupid risks if they see really big rewards. If your opponent isn't patient you can lure in units he can't afford and strike. If you're up against an experienced/patient player (or one who can run the math) this won't work. Even if it does work, it could backfire and leave your army reeling.
Vespids are fantastic, especially against MEQ/Elite troops that you can single out. I would highly advise using them IF you're in a terrain dense battle. Their ability to flit from cover to cover to take down designated targets is a huge asset. If you can combine their abilities with the pinning/marking abilities of a Pathfinder unit you have a classic guerilla tactic. It's especially useful if your opponent doesn't maintain unity. It's something I've noticed from certain players using certain armies. There are players that assume that since they have speedy units at their disposal they need to use that speed. They tend to spread out their units in a way that lets you pick one or two off from the fringes. Most SM armies I see don't do this. (sans drop-pods) I see Eldar players do it all the time. DE seems a likely candidate for the same mistake.
Again, just theory from me. Until I play DE I won't have the field data to back up my suggestions.
When I first thought about it the morale bonus from the ethereal seemed like a decent reason for taking said Ethereal. The problem is that you'll be committing a large number of points to a unit that is soft, and causes horrible results should it die. The +1 BS honor guard seem nice, but again just aren't THAT spiffy. You've made a nice meaty target for your enemy to bite into, and cause serious repercussions for your army should they succeed. All to combat a tactic that your opponent may or may not use. You'd be overcommitting.
That being said, if you're playing against a less experienced player it might actually be a fantastic lure. People get stupid when they see an exposed HQ, and will take really stupid risks if they see really big rewards. If your opponent isn't patient you can lure in units he can't afford and strike. If you're up against an experienced/patient player (or one who can run the math) this won't work. Even if it does work, it could backfire and leave your army reeling.
Vespids are fantastic, especially against MEQ/Elite troops that you can single out. I would highly advise using them IF you're in a terrain dense battle. Their ability to flit from cover to cover to take down designated targets is a huge asset. If you can combine their abilities with the pinning/marking abilities of a Pathfinder unit you have a classic guerilla tactic. It's especially useful if your opponent doesn't maintain unity. It's something I've noticed from certain players using certain armies. There are players that assume that since they have speedy units at their disposal they need to use that speed. They tend to spread out their units in a way that lets you pick one or two off from the fringes. Most SM armies I see don't do this. (sans drop-pods) I see Eldar players do it all the time. DE seems a likely candidate for the same mistake.
Again, just theory from me. Until I play DE I won't have the field data to back up my suggestions.
blackbolt
New member
good point about the ethereal i never thought of it as over committing but yes now i see. so i think a eight man squad of vespids would do the trick. another point. for my crisis suit load outs do i really want to stock up on high point items or stick to flamers and burst cannons. down side is they wont do Excellent to vehicles but on the up side with 2 flamers i can effectively armour pen and kill almost a full squad of warriors(unless they are in a vehicle being the dilemma)
IdofEntity
New member
That depends on what you think your opponent is going to employ in his loadout. Either way against DE I wouldn't suggest flamers on your battlesuits. You're aiming to avoid getting that close. If the unit you were firing on was way out on it's lonesome, the flamers are fine. If he's sticking together and another unit or two is close, you'll get shredded in either light gunfire or in CC. Even if you take out 80% of his troops you'll probably waste a round in CC because of your horrible WS and lack of attacks. Swapping plasma out for a Burst Cannon is a really sound idea if you're going against troops. The reason I suggested plasma and missile combination was for a transport heavy army. If your opponent is fielding lots of troops with few transports then you are absolutely correct in that you should swap out to Burst Cannons. Alternatively if you employ any Battlesuits that can equip Special Issue weapon systems you may want to look at using the Airbursting Fragmentation or Cyclic Ion Blaster which are good for taking down infantry.
An interesting thought, your Stealth Battlesuits are automatically equipped with Burst Cannons and benefit from Acute Senses/Deep Strike rules. (as well as Night-Fighting spotting rules) For dealing with infantry units they're rather effective because by the time your opponent can deal with them you may have gotten off a couple rounds of shooting. Wouldn't suggest taking the special upgrade weapon for every 3rd squad member. You're not taking down termies or Leman Russ'. And Stealth Suits work as a great lure as well. Most opponents know they're worth a nice chunk of points and will try to overtake them. (and if you just stand and shoot he will wreck them to much fanfare) Keep the Stealth Suits mobile and you'll be leading his units where you want, giving your other units more firing opportunities. If your opponent ignores them then he has to deal with an annoying amount of Burst Cannon shots from his flank or rear.
blackbolt
New member
we had our first game yesterday. exactly as i thought his wyches destroyed anything they got close to in CC but 2 submunition shoots finished em. secondly i found that the air bursting fragmentation projector is an AMAZING anti DE weapon. at G18 inch range they get no cover the ap5 pens and its a large blast template. the vespids died on the second turn without being able to accomplish any thing. the elite trueborn squad is deadly with the amount of fire it can pump out.
last point i found out is the combo of ion cannon and rail gun is excellent. the sub shoot on rail gun is great for getting rid of the pesky warriors and the ion cannon keeps the larger things is cover such as transport and incubi( the latter of which i blew apart 3 out of 5 in one round). still have yet to find a way the kill so many warrioirs(20 per squad) without having to sacrifice a battle suit squad equipped with flamers. seems to be the only way to kill um when they dig into cover.
last point i found out is the combo of ion cannon and rail gun is excellent. the sub shoot on rail gun is great for getting rid of the pesky warriors and the ion cannon keeps the larger things is cover such as transport and incubi( the latter of which i blew apart 3 out of 5 in one round). still have yet to find a way the kill so many warrioirs(20 per squad) without having to sacrifice a battle suit squad equipped with flamers. seems to be the only way to kill um when they dig into cover.
blackbolt
New member
oh and the problem with stealth suits is there super squishy and basically his whole army is fleet so i cant really get away. pretty much one turn of shooting cause i gotta be in 18 then even the regular rifle they got just tear me to pieces or they get close enough to charge
