[Wish] New Voting system

[DeusExMachina]

Hello together,

normally I only read but today I have a wish to you.

I want to suggest an new voting system, the actual one is ok but it is not effective and detailed enough. (For my opinion)

My suggestion is to chance it in this way:

1.) Only "logged in" members can vote (this will stopping manipulate votes by deleting the cookie)

2.) The vote will split off in sub votes 0 to 10 Points each:
- Idea/Concept
- craftsman ship (if the model been assembled correctly and or is the conversion successful)
- color selection (if the colors chosen rightly and fit together)
- painting technique
- paint job (looks the paint job good or not, the gut feeling vote)
- presentation (base, picture etc.)

- For Comment: a comment field thats replace the public comment, if some one writes a comment it will be posted after submitting his vote (like the "old" style) showing his over all vote on the side, if the voter left it free no comment will be posted.

The overall vote will be calculated by averaging calculation from the sub vote. And the ranking vote by averaging calculation of all overall votes (that needs no runtime today and is no problem for an good coder)

3.) A WIP (work in process) button for the poster thats only allows to vote for Idea, craftsman ship and presentation. (for Greens and unpainted conversions etc not for half-baked paintings).

4.) A submit vote Button for the voter so he can chose this vote wisely and with enough time. After submitting he will see the new overall vote of the miniature and is not jumped to the next.

5.) Presentation:
The overall vote is show like now, in addition an detail button thats show a pop up site (or new window) with the detailed voted and a list of all voters (this will the sec defense line against vote manipulation) may be with overall vote after the name.

I know this is a little bit more than an simple chance but it will create am advantages for all:
For the Painter:
He can see whats cool on his work an what not. So he have the chance to work on his "weaknesses".

For the Voter:
It is easier to difference the parts of a paint job.
Immediate reply of his vote (seeing was going on no more unsure if my vote is done)

For Sellers/Buyers:
More Thrust in the votes
More Powerful votes

Overall a strengthening of Cool Mini or Not.

I hope my Ideas and wishes meets the interests of the community, please support them if they done.
And please debate about them if they not hit you or not enough.

Hopefully Me.


___________________

please ignore mistakes and bad writhing, English is not my first language.

 

[PegaZus]

I think what you want to add will actually discourage voting. Need to keep it simple, 1 vote: is it cool or not? Done.

Yes, some people can take the voting to extremes trying to manipulate things. But it is just a vote on a website, and nothing else.

 

[crazyboyae1]

agreed, if it was a bigger deal, then change it, but its not just a website to show your models. people wana manipulate their votes thats their problem and everybody can recognize when a 6 is an 8 for some reason..
good ideas tho.

 

[Bohemond]

I think need to add some diffrences to historical miniatures. For example historical reliability and so on.

 

[DeusExMachina]

I think what you want to add will actually discourage voting. Need to keep it simple, 1 vote: is it cool or not? Done.

Yes, some people can take the voting to extremes trying to manipulate things. But it is just a vote on a website, and nothing else.

The manipulation of an vote is not the problem, but as side effect it can be make more difficult.

The problem is 5 is the so called table top standard very thing from non grounded plastic to final cut candidate is on the table. so the half of the point system is useless. I think its about time to use more than one Button for a vote that will make the voting more fair and transparent for all.

@Bohemond: I think historical reliability will be covered in that what I named color selection, and Pink Grey Night is an mighty faux pas like an white Zulu Warrior.

 

[atacam]

This is flogging a dead horse. The voting system is massively flawed, but you have to live with it. It wont get changed.

Good stuff will continually get =voted down, because its not by one of the in crowd, and crap will still get voted high, because they got all their mates to vote it up!

Best thing you can do is use this site for inspiration as there are some real gems on here, and just be thick skinned. I have learnt to be.

 

[BPI]

Hi Deus, I've wrestled about with ideas for the voting system & read numerous threads about the subject & have yet to come up with a solution that is as simple & elegant as the one currently implemented

A thought...
Next time you have a mini to pop into the Gallery, why not start a thread in the Discuss Submissions section of the Forum, along with a request for Forum readers to break down their vote for you as described above. See how many people can be bothered to do more than a 5 second look followed by a single vote! If you can get 10 or so responses at least you have that breakdown for your own work, even if nobody else does. You could also put a note with your Gallery Submission asking Commenters to leave a breakdown for you.

I forsee people bothering for models ranked 8+ or because the artist is a CMON regular who has enough web friends/fans prepared to contribute. It'll be interesting to see

Cheers, B.

 

[nels0nmac]

This topic has been around for quite a while, and whilst I'd agree that the system that we have is not perfect it is at least simple. The system that Deus is suggesting is "better" in that it is more detailed but then it is a lot more complex that requires people to have to think about a whole range of factors to mark a mini on. IMHO most people just won't bother. As it stands it's the case that most people who view a particular mini do not vote on it -- look at the ratio of views to votes, Eg last years top rated mini ( Giganticdarks Ultramarine - 71644 views / 2749 votes; a ratio of just under 4%, and that is quite high because it was such a high profile mini).

The current '5 is tabletop' standard does mean that the top end minis do tend to get squeezed into the 8+ range and there doesn't tend to be much in the 1-2 range. If the tabletop standard had been set at say 3 it would perhaps have been a more even scoring system. That said should it be changed? Much has previously been said about the benefits of changing the "goalposts", but it would also skew the rating of minis compared to before and after the voting change. If it is to be changed it would be best at the start of the year so that say 2010 is the old system and 2011 is the new so that there is a clearly defined point to say this is scored under the old and this is scored under the new. It's still a lot of hassle though.

Currently the best way, and probably always will be the best way of finding out a detailed appraisal of what your mini is like is to post it on the forums, where not only do you get some feedback but you get to see who it has come from + anyone posting in the forums has to be registered and so less likely to be a random numpty just out to rock the boat/ skew the ratings.

 

[Mourner]

I'd have to agree with BPI and nels0nmac, the voting system works because it's easy.

And if you want more feedback on a model than just a grade on how awesome the whole looks, you can always use the forum.

That said, i do think only letting registered and logged-in users vote would be an interesting idea, eliminating some cheaters.

 

[DeusExMachina]

My wish is not a revolution but I hope it is possible to talk about the today and the tomorrow.

@nels0nmac: Your example of Giganticdarks Ultramarine is ok, but I don't know if deep links to the Picture counts as view. If it counts, it will falsify the views/count ratio.

But I agree a more detailed voting system is something that belongs more attention from the voters. But I think voters are willing to use it after the settling in period.

 

[Dragonsreach]

My wish is not a revolution but I hope it is possible to talk about the today and the tomorrow.

But I agree a more detailed voting system is something that belongs more attention from the voters. But I think voters are willing to use it after the settling in period.

Well It's taken me three attempts to try to understand the voting concepts suggestions you are making.
To be honest I think it's overly complex.
With any system the best way of working is always the KISS approach. (Keep It Simple Stupid)
While the current system isn't perfect in that it allows blatant vote padding by cliques, it is simple and did and still does work.

 

[cfwheeler58]

I'm with DR on this, generally

There is only one way I can think of to refine this in a
potentially meaningful way.

What if ?

A CMON painter had the ability to designate themselves
as either a novice, moderate, advanced or expert ?
( These are just examples; subject to some structure...)

Then CMON could function one of 2 ways, based primarily
on how Chern would want to engineer it:

1) You designate yourself with an expertise level and that
is added to every painting submission going forward.
Plus - Simple to implement, simple to post submissions
Minus - Painters skills change over time
Tagging old submissions could be challenging
What if I am trying a new technique way above my skill level ?

2) Every time you post a mini, you declare which expertise
level you want to use to classify the submission.
Plus - Ultimate flexibility. Responds to skill development
Allows painter to experiment with new techniques in a different class
Allows flexibility in assigning expertise to previously posted submissions
Minus - A little more information needed whenever you post
Some default values would have to be applied to older posts

Let's assume for the sake of argument that CMON adopts suggestion #2.

I will use my friend Zach ( Crooked Eye ) as an example ( without his permission ! )
Every one of his existing submissions could be tagged with an expertise level of
his choosing ----Let's say "Expert" since that's where he CLEARLY is now.
CMON gives him the ability to go back to specific submissions ( early in his career ? )
and re-tag if he thinks this makes sense. He could also re-tag submissions which
were experimental in nature. Going forward, all his submissions would be pre-tagged
with his current status, BUT he could make a change to a different class as he sees
fit.

Now comes the payoff, I hope.....

Imagine that you could look at the top 20 for the past 2 weeks in each category ?
Instead of seeing the same 30 or so painters always represented, you could see
what's happening with novices ( so you could HELP them ). Likewise with moderate
and advanced skill levels. You could still see the "best of the best".....just choose
the expert category. If people want to snipe the sh*t out of these to feed their
egos or keep other down....so be it. UNAVOIDABLE.

But....maybe, just maybe...we won't see that as much in other classes where people
really want and probably need feedback and are more likely to benefit from a voting
system which is at least LESS LIKELY to be snipe-city.

Plus, as an added bonus, more quick and easy views of best/most popular work at
different levels, giving more exposure and encouragement to a greater number of painters.

It would throw the "pure" Painter rankings out of whack, but let's be honest:
The top 100 or so are probably mostly "expert" anyway. I would rather see how I
rank against people of my general skill level....and....if my number got high enough,
I'd move up a class!

All this is easy for me to say....Chern and Co. would have to re-engineer the database,
the query tools and the "reports". Plus...historical records would need to be re-tagged.
Lots of work ! But worth talking about.......

 

[Hendarion]

I doubt all would classify them self correctly, since this would mean accepting reality and downgrading their thoughts of them self. Seriously, many 4-6's in cmon have descriptions below like: "This is the best mini I ever made, it is rather pro painted, don't you think?" - and we don't think so. Example on eBay as well (different topic) ("as well"? "aswell"? I always wonder).
Apart from that, do you think people would really often open the categories called "novice", "medium" or "advanced" instead of "expert"? Seriously, I probably would only open the latter two. And then we can dump those "novice" and "medium" anyway, since nobody would look at those.
Last but not least, it would create a multi-class-system. Such a system is never good, not in real-life, not here I guess. It mostly leads to exclusion of the lower ones and creates prejudices. Not to mention bad comments like: "you classified THIS as expert??? This is novice work!" - we don't need that, do we?

 

[DeusExMachina]

Hm I think the possible complexity of a not now voting system is the main reason for any rejection reactions?

So I suggest a quick vote row like the actual one points 0 to 10 and a send button and a button for detailed vote below, so every one have the choice quick vote or switch to detail vote like suggested above (the categories that must be discussed).

The quick vote counts than an detailed vote with all sub votes taken with the quick vote choice (in the averaging calculation this is the same). In the analysis screen quick votes will listed separately for presentation purposes only but in the overall vote they counts full.