Lord ThornShadow
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Version 3 2 Goritsi Cards Discussion
- Thread starter Lord ThornShadow
- Start date
RogueStar
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Wait, so they try and fix the biggest complaint I've been reading for the last month by making the War Dancers glass cannons, make the Shield Breaker more useful against targets without armour, bring the Skorza in line with other Rank 2 so that they don't bump the War Dancers every single game (probably the 3rd biggest complaint I read), and clearly state that the update isn't complete, and all that matters is "nurfed!"?
I'd say this speaks very much in favour of CMON as they show they want to stick to their guns. They've clearly stated that they want to listen to their player base, as well as make the challenge of army list creation part of the game, and those updates clearly have that in mind. Yes, they had some detrimental changes, but game balance is more important. I don't want to play (never mind support) a game with a clearly "better" race / faction / army than the rest. I'd rather see those balances addressed.
And none of these cause me to not want the faction. I still want to paint all those gorgeous figures!
I'd say this speaks very much in favour of CMON as they show they want to stick to their guns. They've clearly stated that they want to listen to their player base, as well as make the challenge of army list creation part of the game, and those updates clearly have that in mind. Yes, they had some detrimental changes, but game balance is more important. I don't want to play (never mind support) a game with a clearly "better" race / faction / army than the rest. I'd rather see those balances addressed.
And none of these cause me to not want the faction. I still want to paint all those gorgeous figures!
TrexPushups
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I was kinda thrilled to see they used my suggestion regarding contact at start of activation stopping flourish from happening.
Lord ThornShadow
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I agree with most of your points. I only stated two things in my post, both of which are very true...
- Goritsi did get nerfed hard (note, I didn't say I disagreed with it).
- I didn't have much else to say, because...
- I haven't had a chance to put the changes into actual practice.
- It was very late and I needed to get to sleep.
Now, putting aside point 2 appears to be necessary to prevent folks from injury while jumping to conclusions of what I meant. :wink:
I speculate most of what you think the changes will do will prove correct. My worry is the pendulum may have swung too far on the War Dancers, and I'll still take Skorza over them, every time. I also worry that the update isn't complete.
I think every game has a clearly superior faction/race that varies based upon your meta and personal preference. Prior to this update, I was of the opinion Shael Han was the best competitive faction in the hands of the right player (still do), but the worst in most players hands (why they're my favorite faction). I think in new players hands, Goritsi and Nasier were competitive equals and better than the rest. Teknes was the better learning faction, and Hadross was for campers.
I do think WoK is closer than most in accomplishing balance, which is one of many reasons I'm excited to play it. I have the same worries though of every game, power creep. If the next unit is no better than he starting ones, there's not much incentive for competitive players to buy it. Modelers and ollectors will anyway, but competitive will only do so if it offers to fill a hole in the never-ending rock-paper-scissors game of competitive play. (Kryptonite fixer, or bringer).
Without having played the new rules, here are my speculations...
I love the Hadross changes and Teknes changes. I like some of the Goritsi changes, but worry the WarDancers still won't see the table and that's a shame because they have such dynamic poses. (I know many will disagree, but not here in my meta, which is all that matters to me until I travel to a tourney elsewhere, and then I'll be better off if that meta is different because opponents there will not be used to, "all Skorza all the time" armies). I think I'll love the Shael Han changes.
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Well I would say that the reaction to your post is directly proportional and in line to how you made your post. Be that as it may, there are more changes to Goritsi then any other faction this round, and through playtest, I find that most of them are quite good. There really was no downside to the Skorza, and getting 2-3, 2 die attacks a turn, with a fantastic defensive buff made them the hands down best choice for the Goritsi to take. Now, they are still a solid choice, but not an unstoppable wall of fangs and teeth.
As for War Dancers, they are still fantastic at removing multiple models. The one concern I have with it now though is that it now does not ignore reactions, making deadly flourish fantastic against opponents with no reactions and risky against those with it. Still, the Moral advantage of taking War Dancers over Skirmishers, as well their ability to strike multiple models in a single Flourish, combined with the fact that they have 2 attack dice, makes this infantry unit easily on par with its werewolf counterpart. THey still have great synergy with both the Herald of Blood and the Dance master, each of whom make the dancers even more deadly then they are on their own. I think that the video did a good job showing the strengths of the Dancers and the Skorza, and why both have a place in the force.
The Shield Breaker has gotten a significant upgrade, making him more of a shield then a breaker. He now becomes one of the best Rank 1 Specialist tie up pieces, who can still take out multiple infantry in a single attack.
The Scourge hound is now a very fragile specialist, kind of the Skorza equivalent to a War Dancer. She will get in the first attack, and as long as the dice do not hate her, she will tear a hole in someones defense, unfortunately after that she will disappear quite quickly.
Overall, I think that these changes bring the Goritsi more in line with the other factions. THey still rely on speed, movement tricks, and hitting hard first to accomplish their goals. With Motivations like Assassinate, kill informants and no confidence that they can use their hard hitting on, and their speed will aid in Gather Intelligence and Disrupt Supply line, the Goritsi are looking pretty good. Will have to put them back on the table again to see if they collapse with hte new changes or if they hold their own and give as good as they get.
As for War Dancers, they are still fantastic at removing multiple models. The one concern I have with it now though is that it now does not ignore reactions, making deadly flourish fantastic against opponents with no reactions and risky against those with it. Still, the Moral advantage of taking War Dancers over Skirmishers, as well their ability to strike multiple models in a single Flourish, combined with the fact that they have 2 attack dice, makes this infantry unit easily on par with its werewolf counterpart. THey still have great synergy with both the Herald of Blood and the Dance master, each of whom make the dancers even more deadly then they are on their own. I think that the video did a good job showing the strengths of the Dancers and the Skorza, and why both have a place in the force.
The Shield Breaker has gotten a significant upgrade, making him more of a shield then a breaker. He now becomes one of the best Rank 1 Specialist tie up pieces, who can still take out multiple infantry in a single attack.
The Scourge hound is now a very fragile specialist, kind of the Skorza equivalent to a War Dancer. She will get in the first attack, and as long as the dice do not hate her, she will tear a hole in someones defense, unfortunately after that she will disappear quite quickly.
Overall, I think that these changes bring the Goritsi more in line with the other factions. THey still rely on speed, movement tricks, and hitting hard first to accomplish their goals. With Motivations like Assassinate, kill informants and no confidence that they can use their hard hitting on, and their speed will aid in Gather Intelligence and Disrupt Supply line, the Goritsi are looking pretty good. Will have to put them back on the table again to see if they collapse with hte new changes or if they hold their own and give as good as they get.
feketelovag
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Cant really disagree with most of the changes since the tweaks were needed.
Im actually liking the Shield Breaker again since he is once more like the original version of himself which was as tough as nails.
Im not sure about the previous wording of the Scourge Hound's Follow Me ability but did this actually become a buff instead of a nerf? I know that it only effects 1 model now instead of 2 but were you able to sling shot 1 model up to 8" before as well? Or just 4" for 2 potential models? Only because if it was capped at 4" per model before than being able to sling him 8" might even be better than before.
Sad about the Skorza nerf but meh. At least its nothing huge and more than likely deserved.
War Dancers on the other hand I feel got hit pretty hard. I wasnt overly pleased with them before either but now that they are even more of a glass cannon and losing their ability when engaged is going to drop them even further. Personally I think either or would have been enough but getting both nerf is overkill. The engaged bit is huge in of itself when considered with their frailty so would have been enough of a nerf. Dropping their already bad survivability on top of that is probably not somthing that was needed.
Im actually liking the Shield Breaker again since he is once more like the original version of himself which was as tough as nails.
Im not sure about the previous wording of the Scourge Hound's Follow Me ability but did this actually become a buff instead of a nerf? I know that it only effects 1 model now instead of 2 but were you able to sling shot 1 model up to 8" before as well? Or just 4" for 2 potential models? Only because if it was capped at 4" per model before than being able to sling him 8" might even be better than before.
Sad about the Skorza nerf but meh. At least its nothing huge and more than likely deserved.
War Dancers on the other hand I feel got hit pretty hard. I wasnt overly pleased with them before either but now that they are even more of a glass cannon and losing their ability when engaged is going to drop them even further. Personally I think either or would have been enough but getting both nerf is overkill. The engaged bit is huge in of itself when considered with their frailty so would have been enough of a nerf. Dropping their already bad survivability on top of that is probably not somthing that was needed.
Lord ThornShadow
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Not in my opinion. I was just trying to add the same levity as your, "I'm Waiting" meme in another thread.
However, I was tired, and when the forum said I needed 10 characters to post the bear pic, I came up with, "Don't have much else to say at this point." which I think is where folks misunderstood my intent, as I meant it with a tired tone, not an angry one. The fact folks are reading it as such means they are either angry at the nerf and are saying, "right on, you tell 'em" or they were angry before the nerf and are incredulous that I'd mention they were nerfed. And let's face it, They Were Nerfed!
I was stating fact, with comedy being my only intended emotion. Mea culpa, sheesh. Didn't realize this was a sore topic for folks.
Agreed.
As far as my thoughts on War Dancers, I agree with feketelovag's assessment. Nerfing either their defense or their attack, not both, old have more chance I'd take them as often as Skorza, or in equivalent 5/3 numbers together. Kind of weird to nerf the, "cannon" part of the, "glass cannon" intent when you also increase the brittleness of the glass.
All the other nerfs, I agree with and think were necessary.
This one will take play-time to decide fully, but I've been playing miniature games for 36 years, and have helped write rules for a few of them, and at this point I think this one nerf was a bit too much to achieve the two stated goals of the nerf (Make them more of a Glass Cannon and make no one unit more likely to be taken than another).
The newest video helped allay my fears somewhat, but one play only shows how they fair against Mr. Black and a limited selection of Hadrossians.
Time will tell, and please cut me some lack. I'm old and get cranky when I haven't had enough sleep. And I had to take a family pet to the Vet this morning to have a tumor surgically removed.
While I agree they got more brittle, not seeing that the Cannon was damaged in the least. They still hit harder and more often then any other rank 1. Cost half as much as a Goritsi, and with a possible exception of Ashmen, should always be able to chose the engagement and hit first. Not seeing that having to start unengaged truly made any impact to deadly flourish, since most of the time, if they were ever engaged, they were not there the next activation to use flourish anyways. I still see me running 10 Dancers and 4 Skorza teams in a skirmish. Of course I also see me running 6 Skorza and 6 Dancer groupings also, depending on who I bring as my leaders.
Lord ThornShadow
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Such a good point! Especially now, lol.
Of course, the first thing I thought of as a Shael Han player is I can steal the WD's strongest feature, their alpha strike, by sprinting Dragon Legionairres into BtB with them, ignore their counter-attacks with my vapor, and kill them next turn because even DL's kill War Dancers easily (moreso now).
Even knowing I'll lose two of my DLs to a crafty Goritsi player - one who has their leader in play issue a, "Come Hither" order pulling them out of BtB second from the end, allowing two to lose Vapors, which of course, puts said leader in front of her line (easy pickings for my next line of attack) - I'll easily trade 2 DLs for an entire unit of WarDancers and their leader. :snicker:
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That would probably only work once. There are too many answers too many answers to this problem. Activating with a Blood Herald will insure that none of the DLs are in base with another DL. Using Come Hither on key models to break the chain with a dance master will also work as you mentioned.
As for Fragility of pieces, lets look at a War Dancer vs a DL.
The DL has a 60% chance to eliminate a War Dancer, the Dancer has a 64% Chance to eliminate a DL. Seems both are just as Fragile. If the War Dancers were activated with a Dance master the chance that the DL will die moves to 75%.
A War Dancer Attacking a DL with another DL in Base Contact has a 46% chance of killing the DL, this number increases to 53.5% chance if activated by a dance master. So, it is unlikely that you will be ignoring a lot of their counter attacks. I think that I would take those odds if I get to attack first.
As for Fragility of pieces, lets look at a War Dancer vs a DL.
The DL has a 60% chance to eliminate a War Dancer, the Dancer has a 64% Chance to eliminate a DL. Seems both are just as Fragile. If the War Dancers were activated with a Dance master the chance that the DL will die moves to 75%.
A War Dancer Attacking a DL with another DL in Base Contact has a 46% chance of killing the DL, this number increases to 53.5% chance if activated by a dance master. So, it is unlikely that you will be ignoring a lot of their counter attacks. I think that I would take those odds if I get to attack first.
Lord ThornShadow
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How?
“Healing Vapors” ability, which allows them to ignore successful strikes against them as long as they are in contact with an allied Dragon Legionnaire. The trade-off is all this extra vapor makes it hard to block magic and ranged attacks, so they have lost “Deflection”.
Do the WDs have a magic or ranged attack now?
And in all games, most things only work once per opponent unless you're playing idiots.
I've been trying to agree with you for the most part but I'm starting to feel like you need me to say you are 100% correct and I'm 100% wrong. Are you part of the Playtest team and offended I think the team went too far on inly one of a myriad of changes? If so, please don't. I think the team has done an amazing job so far. 1-2 little things won't break the game. While I see your points, I don't agree with all of them, and I have the table experience to defeat my own points as well, lol.
I guess what what in trying to say is everybody gets it wrong. I just think it would have been more prudent to go one change at a time and see which issue corrected it best or if it needed both. But I'm from the old school where we changed out one chip at a time to fix computers. Now it's entire boards.
I guess that I would first ask whether you read the actual ability or just the marketing hype. Vapors basically gives a DL a 50-50 chance to avoid each strike that they receive. It does nothing for overpowers.
As for either of us agreeing 100% doubt that will ever happen, nor does that matter. Differing ideas are the spice of gaming. I just figured that a different concept and an opinion with a little more info would be a good thing, sorry if it offends you.
We play in a group that will face each other again and again, so one trick ponies are never that impressive. In a tournament scene though they often get you an advantage
As for either of us agreeing 100% doubt that will ever happen, nor does that matter. Differing ideas are the spice of gaming. I just figured that a different concept and an opinion with a little more info would be a good thing, sorry if it offends you.
We play in a group that will face each other again and again, so one trick ponies are never that impressive. In a tournament scene though they often get you an advantage
Lord ThornShadow
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I've only read what I quoted. As I stated in two other threads (SH cards and Ver 3 2 Rules) both started by me, the Shael Han Dragon Legionairres Cards had not been updated. Where is the actual ability so I can read it and not look like a total moron?
Are you part of the Playtest team?
I'm not offended, just frustrated. I tried to start a humorous thread (at midnight local time during the work-week) for discussion, and when I saw it going off track the next morning I tried to correct it. I have felt you have been trying to draw me out ever since no matter how much I agree with you. (Which I've done every step of the way, while trying to share other possible perspectives). I was beginning to think I had somehow offended you in another thread previous to this one, and this was somehow personal. I'm glad it doesn't appear to be the case.
I said pretty much both of these things in posts above.
Conclusion - One of the reasons I hate Internet forums is lack of true auditory tone and body language. I'm a trained crisis negotiator and experienced interrogator, but I'll be danged if I can tell what motives people have for what they say on the internet. Multiply this crucial lack of communication clues with the faux courage brought about by an anonymity which allows folks to be more adamant, or so-called experts, (not to mention more rude - nobody here, fortunately) than they'd ever be face-to-face, and I'm amazed ideas ever get across at all.
My apologies for any misunderstandings to all, and especially for being the first to cry nerf for a, "secondary to me" faction. I just thought it interesting one faction was being hit much harder than the others, when in our local proxy play throughs and reports of others we'd seen so far, our group here didn't see these as big issues. Next time I start a thread I'll better state my intent is neutral, or research it more thoroughly (hadn't been following any discussions where Goritsi was being complained about - not sure I have the desire to read it now, lol).
Finally, the bear in the opening pic was the closest thing I could find to a werewolf, (I use an iPad not a PC, and have no skill at photoshop type things to create my own meme even if I had the tools). My intent was for said bear to represent how a Goritsi leader or soldier would feel, not me personally. I really have no dog (pun of serendipity) in this fight and will now bow out gracefully of my own thread. Thanks for reading and the discussion. I'll continue to follow it, but worry I have nothing of use to add further to the discussion.
feketelovag
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Card seems updated to me. Perhaps you should empty your cache or try a refresh? If that doesnt work then in the meantime the new ability states...
Healing Vapors: While in contact with a friendly model with the Dragon Guard trait, each time this model is attacked and a strike result is generated it may make a Will Check(1). On 1 or more successes it may ignore any damage from that strike.
So basically there is only a 1 in 10 chance to auto kill it with an overpower... just like all other rank 1 infantry. However he has a 50% chance of surviving a strike hit when rolled. Though Im not too clear with the wording and if an attack is considered to be an attack dice or if its on a model basis. So Im not sure if a model with 2 attack dice rolls 2 strikes than both of the strikes can get a will check to be ignored or if only 1 can get a roll due to the "attack" being considered as a single attack due to it coming from a single model (source). In any event this is a nice buff and I dont really see why they needed something when they were fine before.
Probably a good idea since this is pretty much just version 2.0 of the previous thread except you've taken my role
.
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As Feket stated, the DL card update has been loaded onto the site, which is where I got the actual wording for the ability.
From how I read the ability, and this is how I calculated the odds of a War Dancer successfully killing a DL was that the DL got a Will Check vs every strike, so if in a single attack, if two strikes were generated, then he would get 2 will checks to try and avoid the strikes generated.
As for Goritsi seeing the biggest changes, they were the ones who initially had the most changes done to them, so it kind of makes sense that after playing with the new changes, that they would be getting the most adjustment. Skorza truly needed to be adjusted, they were just too good as is. The War Dancers needed something to minimize just how dangerous that they are, so the engage them to prevent Flourish is nice, but it still puts your troops at risk, since War Dancers are still dangerous even when they only get a single attack. The Shield Breaker just did not live up to his name, so his adjustments to the positive will give him back a place on the table.
Now its time to play again and see if these changes bring them into a good place, or if they were too much.
From how I read the ability, and this is how I calculated the odds of a War Dancer successfully killing a DL was that the DL got a Will Check vs every strike, so if in a single attack, if two strikes were generated, then he would get 2 will checks to try and avoid the strikes generated.
As for Goritsi seeing the biggest changes, they were the ones who initially had the most changes done to them, so it kind of makes sense that after playing with the new changes, that they would be getting the most adjustment. Skorza truly needed to be adjusted, they were just too good as is. The War Dancers needed something to minimize just how dangerous that they are, so the engage them to prevent Flourish is nice, but it still puts your troops at risk, since War Dancers are still dangerous even when they only get a single attack. The Shield Breaker just did not live up to his name, so his adjustments to the positive will give him back a place on the table.
Now its time to play again and see if these changes bring them into a good place, or if they were too much.
Lord ThornShadow
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Hmm, it's not a cache issue - using an iPad which I shut completely off and tried again. Here is the link I'm following (same link from Download page and from Faction page)...
http://wrathofkings.com/ks/downloads/WOK_compiled_Shael-Han.pdf
And it still shows the DL has Deflection. And nothing about Vapors. Is there a new link that isn't on the main WoK site? I'm not the only one who has noticed this as I've had others say the same in other threads. Also, I've seen someone talking about Alana Heska change that I didn't see.
http://wrathofkings.com/ks/downloads/WOK_compiled_Shael-Han.pdf
And it still shows the DL has Deflection. And nothing about Vapors. Is there a new link that isn't on the main WoK site? I'm not the only one who has noticed this as I've had others say the same in other threads. Also, I've seen someone talking about Alana Heska change that I didn't see.
Lord ThornShadow
New member
Never mind. I figured it out. Apparently iPads do save cache even when turned off and back on. On a whim, I hit refresh on the PDF and it took way longer than initial loading, and voilà, it was the new card! :embarrassed:
Sad fact is, now I need to find time on a very busy day to read all the new stuff. Weird, I thought I caught some differences in other factions. I might have a lot of reading, lol.
Sad fact is, now I need to find time on a very busy day to read all the new stuff. Weird, I thought I caught some differences in other factions. I might have a lot of reading, lol.
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