Using a fine-tip pen for "details"?

GamerDad

New member
Hello guys!

New WH40K player here. My son is interested in it and I must admit I was eyeing this hobby for a while as well. We've been dabbling in the hobby for a little over a year, although the actual time spent to date would only be maybe a couple of month's worth. School, life, and other hobbies took up most of our free time. However, with the coming summer break, we've decided to re-open this hobby and learn and play a bit more in-depth this time. In line with this, I purchased a Tau army for myself and am in the process of painting it, as well as finishing some units and a tank for my son's Space Marines army. Which brings me to my biggest, most annoying problem: painting the "details."

I'm not too sure if I'm using the right term, but what I am referring to is those depressions/lines intended to give a bit of detail or depth to the mini. Like the lines on the Tau Fire Warrior leg armor. The method I come across most often is using washes to get pigment into the crevices --- and this is the bit I hate the most. I know I'm not the best painter, so I'm not aiming for Golden Demon standard, heck, I'd be grateful to be even halfway competent compared to the pics I see here! But that doesn't mean I am content with just slapping paint on, putting some sand on the base, and playing with a "tabletop standard" mini. I like to put in a bit of effort --- I've heard of the "three feet" rule, but I'd rather maybe "three inches."

Anyway, long-winded intro aside, my painting process is as follows: Prime white, basecoat, wash, clean up, base.

I am happy with how my priming technique goes, and I find basecoating rather relaxing. When it comes to applying the wash, this is where I get frustrated the most. I've tried applying it in globs, or using a fine 0 or 000 paintbrush to just allow it to flow into the lines. When applying another layer of paint, I find it very difficult to 1) clean up the mess from the wash, 2) not put paint on the crevices/lines, and 3) stop myself from doing things over-and-over fixing small errors then making another error to fix.

So, I've tried an old trick a friend showed me when I was younger --- using a fine-tipped pen to "draw" the lines. He used to do this on Gundam models, but at that time, we weren't concerned about shading or anything, just getting the colors right. Currently, I've tried a 0.05 black pen on my Tau Fire Warrior, and I must say it looks great! Nice and clean lines, easy to fix, easy to re-apply, and so on. My only beef is that it "stands out" too much; I wonder if I should apply a very thinned-down coat of [insert name of brown/yellow paint here] just to mute the "black" a bit?

Please note that I am not concerned about shading and the like, but even then, would obviously need something to bring out the lines and details on the minis. I've not had much success with washes even after 30+ Space Marines, but I do see the benefit of washes for things like Dreadnought legs, tank armor plating, etc. It is the finer details on the smaller minis that I have the most problem.

I wonder if anyone here uses this same method, or at least has an experience with it? I'd love to hear some feedback, compare notes, etc.

Thanks!
 

MAXXxxx

New member
I also used liner-pens for my Tau. Works perfectly. If you find the Black too strong, you could try buying a brown or grey pen, They exist.
Brown from Pigma.
Brown and Grey from Copic.

and an alternative to this lining thing with paints:
- varnish model with gloss (spray for speed)
- with well thinned paint do the lining (no need to be really careful, the errors will be corrected in the next step). Here I'd forget the 00 or 000 brushes, paint dries too fast in them. A good 0 with a really good point is what's needed (and thinning the paint with water)
- with the help of a cleaner get rid of the smears (Vallejo airbrush cleaner works great with Q-tips here)
- varnish with matt or satin (again spray for speed) depending on preference.
 

Bailey03

New member
Is the line from the pen slightly glossy? If so try hitting the model with a matt varnish (spray dullcoat would probably work fine) and see if it fixes the problem. It might be the shine that's making it stand out.

As for what MAXXxxx said about varnishing first and then washing, I'd heard of the same idea but using oil paints for the wash (thinned down of course). Because the oil paints take a while to dry you can just wipe off the excess and it's like it was never there. A lot of people seem to like the oil washes over the acrylic ones for this sort of thing. Here's a link to a good tutorial video that walks you through the process from start to finish: http://tutofig.com/2012/09/video-washes-using-oil-washes/ and here's a written tutorial http://tutofig.com/2013/01/panel-line-washes/

That site has a lot of tutorials on a wide variety of painting/modeling topics. Take a look around.
 

ced1106

New member
Yep! I use it for eyes sometimes, and small details. A neat trick is that if you swipe the pen near a small detail that needs shading (eg. sword runes), you can then massage in the ink with a damp brush. This definitely "mutes" the ink. Some black ink I used looks brown after treatment!
 

GamerDad

New member
After letting it sit on the mini for two days, I decided to try "muting" the black with a layer of paint. To my surprise, the black ink smudged! So much for waterproof and permanent! I had to re-apply so many layers...

Maxx, any chance of a link to Copic markers? I've seen some in the US site, but not sure if that's what you mean. Am I looking for markers, or pens? According to this page, seems like they've got loads of different colors too!
 

ozymandias

New member
I haven't used pens for years (basically since I stopped painting armies and focused on single minis), but Rotring used to do very fine nibbed pends that you could buy different ink capsules for and had an excellent range of colours. I'm pretty sure that you could get something slightly off black if you want.
 

TrystanGST

New member
I bought a brown and black pen, in the finest tip I could find (0.005), for the purpose of freehand and eyes. Turns out they are still too big. Oil washes, on the other hand, are awesome. Definitely want to seal the acrylic first though.
 

GamerDad

New member
Definitely want to seal the acrylic first though.
What does that mean? And why do I want to do that?

Weird, I made a post earlier but it's not showing up.... anyway, to those who have made suggestions, please give as much detail as you can with regards to the pen used. I'm trying to search for stuff but I'm having difficulty finding them. For instance, the Copic website says they offer a bunch of colors, but my search only shows basic colors for sale, none of the brown pens. Rotring doesn't even seem to sell colored pens anymore, or rather the one I saw was about 32Euros, a proper technical pen.

One problem I've encountered was after letting my mini sit for two days, I decided to try "muting" the black line by adding a layer of brown, but all I ended up doing is dirtying everything as the black color seemed to spread. So much for waterproof and permanent! Is this normal? I guess I should draw on the lines at the very last stage?
 

TrystanGST

New member
Ah - my mistake. In this instance, I mean spraying the model with a clearcoat or varnish, like GW Purity Seal or such.
 

Bailey03

New member
As for the why, the thinner in the oil wash can take off the acrylic paints beneath it if you don't cover it with some sort of sealer first. It protects the original paint and also gives you a smoother surface to apply the washes to.
 

ozymandias

New member
Rotring doesn't even seem to sell colored pens anymore, or rather the one I saw was about 32Euros, a proper technical pen.

The Rotring ones were pretty expensive. However, as I say it has been years since I have used them. I will have a look on the internet and see if I can find one

The downside of many pens is, as you have experienced, that the ink is incompatible with acrylic paint (i.e. doesn't become waterproof or stick on the model where it is over the top of acrylic). However, this is primarily trial and error.

Edit: These were the ones that I used to use: http://www.rotring.com/en/8-Isograph-Technical-Pens. Expensive, but the ink used to work fine over GW paints and the lines could be pretty good. You won't win awards with them, but they are quick and neat.
 
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boubi

New member
For a beginner to start with oil is bit complicated. You need your paint to flow in the recesses, for that I just advice you to use washes applied with a size 0 brush with a really fine tip by successive small precise brush action in the recessed spaced of 1cm from each other to cover the recessed line...
But I am not sure that this is really what you need, It is quite difficult without picture. Can you post any picture of your actual work?
 

MAXXxxx

New member
For a beginner to start with oil is bit complicated.
how? It's really the same thing.

oil:
- varnish, open paint(oil), thin it with it's thinner, apply wash, wipe off excess (Qtip + Thinner works really great here) , varnish again

acryl:
- varnish, open paint(acryl), thin it with it's thinner, apply wash, wipe off excess (Qtip + VallejoAirbrushCleaner works really great here), varnish again

(+1 pen):
- paint lines with the pen, varnish to be sure it stays there.
 

GamerDad

New member
As for the why, the thinner in the oil wash can take off the acrylic paints beneath it if you don't cover it with some sort of sealer first. It protects the original paint and also gives you a smoother surface to apply the washes to.
I have a can of GW Purity Seal. Is this okay to use? I thought this was just used once the mini was finished, to "seal" everything and protect from being rubbed off.... if you guys are suggesting I use it IN-BETWEEN paint coats, what's the best method to use it? And do I have to make sure I cover the model 100%? Is there any chance the Purity Seal will "drown out" the details (such as when overspraying primer on a model)?

Can you post any picture of your actual work?
Need to dig out the ol' camera.

(+1 pen):
- paint lines with the pen, varnish to be sure it stays there.
Maxx, still hoping for a link to the pens you are recommending. Also, as above, how exactly do I apply varnish? At the moment, I am thinking of just finishing painting everything on the mini, then putting in the lines as a last step before a spray of GW Purity Seal.
 

TrystanGST

New member
I have a can of GW Purity Seal. Is this okay to use? I thought this was just used once the mini was finished, to "seal" everything and protect from being rubbed off.... if you guys are suggesting I use it IN-BETWEEN paint coats, what's the best method to use it? And do I have to make sure I cover the model 100%? Is there any chance the Purity Seal will "drown out" the details (such as when overspraying primer on a model)?

I've used it as an in between. You don't have to worry about perfect coverage, just make sure you get the area you want to "protect". Spray it like you would primer.
 

GamerDad

New member
I see. So should I paint-line-seal-paint or should I paint-seal-line-seal-paint?

Also, should I be worried about putting on too many layers?
 

TrystanGST

New member
Paint - seal - line - paint - seal.

The seal just makes it easier to clean up any overage from the lines. Then you can continue to paint without having to seal again. Then seal it at the end to protect it all. Though if you are using oil for lining, keep in mind the longer dry times when working around it.
 

Rahz

New member
If you use a pen and are going to be applying any sort of wash afterwards, I have had the ink from the pen washed off so you may want to hit anything done with a pen (I use the Micron pens by Pigma as mentioned above). Also had my ink from the pens come off when applying some gloss-coat by brush to an area I was trying to add some shine to. I've since started adding a quick hit of sealer after adding any pen work IF I plan on adding anything that could wash it off.
 

Kelly Kim

New member
Is the line from the pen slightly glossy? If so try hitting the model with a matt varnish (spray dullcoat would probably work fine) and see if it fixes the problem. It might be the shine that's making it stand out.

I find that sprays often don't reach the deepest recesses, where the shiny inks reside. If that's the case, get yourself some Vallejo matt medium, thin it JUST ENOUGH so that it brushes on without leaving bristlemarks, and use a brush to paint it over any area that's too shiny. Let dry, and give it another coat. Once dry, it should kill the finish, leaving it with a truly matt / flat finish.

Otherwise, I also recommend giving the oil wash over a sealed surface a try. Capillary action pulls the wash off your brush, into the recess. Any excess is easily cleaned up with a detail brush slightly dampened with thinner. Thanks to the super slow drying time of oil paints, you will have plenty of time to fix any mistakes.

I've also used the Pigma Micron technical pens you find in various art stores, and they're great for sketching in details. I often find myself drawing in my freehand the way a comic book is pencilled, which makes it easier to apply paint colour afterwards.
 

GamerDad

New member
Paint - seal - line - paint - seal.

The seal just makes it easier to clean up any overage from the lines. Then you can continue to paint without having to seal again. Then seal it at the end to protect it all. Though if you are using oil for lining, keep in mind the longer dry times when working around it.

If you use a pen and are going to be applying any sort of wash afterwards, I have had the ink from the pen washed off so you may want to hit anything done with a pen (I use the Micron pens by Pigma as mentioned above). Also had my ink from the pens come off when applying some gloss-coat by brush to an area I was trying to add some shine to. I've since started adding a quick hit of sealer after adding any pen work IF I plan on adding anything that could wash it off.

As Rahz said (and I found out), the pen doesn't seem to dry completely --- I left mine for two days and the pen ink still came off when I applied a layer of paint. I guess it's best to seal after any pen lining is done?

Regarding oil washes, or washes in particular, it's not the application of the wash that is annoying me, it is the cleanup done afterwards. As per my other thread on thinning paints, I can have a very nice-looking washed mini, but I just destroy it by a wayward brush stroke. The effort of re-applying the wash and cleanup is just too much for me, especially now that I've "discovered" these pens. Note that I only intend to use these on "lines" on the mini, such as those on the Tau rifles and on the Tau helmet. For shadow or dirt effects, such as between the "folds" of a tank armor or around the rivets, I cannot see myself using pens for that but rather wash is still ideal.
 
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