Upcoming changes to Jeor Mormont, Night Watch captains and conscripts

[Oakwolf]

As we could guess, the changes are coming along for the Night's Watch.

What do you think about them?

• Conscripts can now have vows and are insignificant.

• Captains cost 1 instead of 2 and they have an order to use a vow as if you controlled the required zone. The unit won't start with a vow attached though.

• Jeor Mormont (commander) now grants +2 to morale and the unit he's attached to can use vows as if you controlled all zones. His unit can have 2 vows attached. Talk about elite.
  ,

I think this should put them back on the table (and i am quite happy about this since Jeor is my favorite NW character)

 

[Gallahad]

This seems a bit like polishing the Ferrari to me. Out of curiosity, who were NW struggling against? Starks?
NW easily seemed like the 2nd best army from my limited experience.
I think making conscripts insignificant is a misstep.
An insignificant unit that gets to heal minimum d3+1 wounds every turn (reinforcements plus watch recruiter) just strikes me as bonkers.
I bet we are going to see armies with two to three units of conscripts plus a stone thrower and pypar+xbows for damage.

 

[AlxRaven]

Overall, I like the changes and feel that Vows will be more consistent, which will make them a bigger factor in games outside of the 1-2 units you got lucky enough to get a good Vow+Tactics Board matchup.

Jeor and the Captain will also help counter Tactics Board shenanigans from you opponent. The boost to Jeor will help him be a viable commander, instead of most people picking Jon as an auto-Commander, and building from there...

Conscripts does seem a bit odd to me on paper. Again the change helps Vows be a bigger factor, but the addition of insignificant seems a little too much for the points. Then again, it lessens the worry of letting them get stomped. And their death could trigger other tactics cards. And the one time I’ve had a chance to play them so far, they did not hold up as well in game as I thought they would. So there is that to consider...

 

[Oakwolf]

This seems a bit like polishing the Ferrari to me. Out of curiosity, who were NW struggling against? Starks?
NW easily seemed like the 2nd best army from my limited experience.
I think making conscripts insignificant is a misstep.
An insignificant unit that gets to heal minimum d3+1 wounds every turn (reinforcements plus watch recruiter) just strikes me as bonkers.
I bet we are going to see armies with two to three units of conscripts plus a stone thrower and pypar+xbows for damage.

I get what you mean, although here's my take on this:

NW always was a great performer, but mainly due to specific combos...over time the same thing was used ad nauseam.

What i mean is that Jeor, the conscripts and especially the captains just never saw any action at all. People wouldn't take them for a reason.

By helping these units a bit, we might see more diverse NW armies, which i honestly like. Fighting waves of conscripts would be such a refreshing sight

Is it too much? Time will tell, but hopefully CMON will be able to gather some data if they are being actually used.

 

[AlxRaven]

Exactly!!

The biggest thing these changes bring is options/variety.

 

[Gallahad]

I agree this had a chance to increase list diversity, and helps promote balance within the NW, but it does so by simultaneously decreasing the balance between NW and other factions.

See this article from a gentleman who developed a sophisticated Elo ranking system for ASOIAF:
https://onthetablegaming.com/index.php/2020/01/on-the-table-by-the-numbers/
With hundreds of tournament results from three different metas NW has a huge win ratio and Jon as a commander has an even higher win ratio (with most of his losses coming from mirrored Jon v Jon games!)

Maybe (hopefully) more changes are coming to NW, but rather than trying to increase list diversity by making Conscripts unambiguously better, they should have done it by making some other things a little worse.

 

[Oakwolf]

I agree this had a chance to increase list diversity, and helps promote balance within the NW, but it does so by simultaneously decreasing the balance between NW and other factions.

See this article from a gentleman who developed a sophisticated Elo ranking system for ASOIAF:
https://onthetablegaming.com/index.php/2020/01/on-the-table-by-the-numbers/
With hundreds of tournament results from three different metas NW has a huge win ratio and Jon as a commander has an even higher win ratio (with most of his losses coming from mirrored Jon v Jon games!)

Maybe (hopefully) more changes are coming to NW, but rather than trying to increase list diversity by making Conscripts unambiguously better, they should have done it by making some other things a little worse.

I think they are not done entirely so we might see other changes. They seem to have gone by release order pretty much, starting with stuff from the Kickstarter and now tackling the more recent Night's watch and Free Folk expansions.

The NW did suffer a bit more than others with the panic changes. First they were one of the good morale armies, so they were not used to take much casualties from panic. Second, they have almost no way to focus on panic for offense so that change only had negative effect on them.

The +1 cost to Sworn Brothers was expected, as that unit was just asking to be spammed over.

 

[AlxRaven]

I know NW is always talked about as being an Elite faction as their focus, but it’s always seemed more about adaptability/versatility to me. We have units with descents stats for both melee and ranges attacks in one. And Vows let you tweak a unit to fit a scenario or opponent.

The problem was we weren’t seeing that diversity in lists. These changes will hopefully fix that, while promoting that adaptability. Yes, Jon led armies got a buff by the nature of the general changes, but Jeor lists got a bigger buff. We’ll see if that’s enough to knock Jon out of the Auto-Commander spot.

They closed the Free Folk article talking about more changes to come. There’s only one other NW unit that I feel needs to get some help, and that’s the Scorpion. Not sure what else to expect besides that, or even what changes to consider for them.

 

[Oakwolf]

I know NW is always talked about as being an Elite faction as their focus, but it’s always seemed more about adaptability/versatility to me. We have units with descents stats for both melee and ranges attacks in one. And Vows let you tweak a unit to fit a scenario or opponent.

The problem was we weren’t seeing that diversity in lists. These changes will hopefully fix that, while promoting that adaptability. Yes, Jon led armies got a buff by the nature of the general changes, but Jeor lists got a bigger buff. We’ll see if that’s enough to knock Jon out of the Auto-Commander spot.

They closed the Free Folk article talking about more changes to come. There’s only one other NW unit that I feel needs to get some help, and that’s the Scorpion. Not sure what else to expect besides that, or even what changes to consider for them.

I agree entirely. The scorpion is where it's at.

I -really- hope they will improve the scorpion's synergy with Otell Yarwick (commander) while at it. I's probably the unit which benefits the least from his cards, and he's supposed to be the first builder. There's little if any reason to get more than two of these, so Othell's removal of the restriction is sadly useless.

Another unit they might touch is the Hunters. They got alot of flak for being too expensive, however the changes should be small.

 

[AlxRaven]

My biggest issue with the Hunters, and the Trackers too, has been the Short Range. It’s been hard to wrap my head around, being used to the Stark Bowmen.

It’s a much easier choice, with Long Range, to decide between doing a Ranged Attack or a Charge Action. With Short Range, it’s been extremely rare that Charge doesn’t seem the better option. Either the enemy is unengaged, and since you’re encouraged to attack unactivated units, will most likely do an easy Charge into you. Or the enemy is engaged, which causes Friendly Fire. And since 1.5, failed Panic Tests hurt NW more.

This may be more of a reason to take Jeor now. At least the Morale buff he gives his own unit would help in those Friendly Fire cases.

I like the adaptability of those units, as stated before. It just seems like they could use some help in making it more of a choice. Especially for the Hunters.

 

[Oakwolf]

My biggest issue with the Hunters, and the Trackers too, has been the Short Range. It’s been hard to wrap my head around, being used to the Stark Bowmen.

It’s a much easier choice, with Long Range, to decide between doing a Ranged Attack or a Charge Action. With Short Range, it’s been extremely rare that Charge doesn’t seem the better option. Either the enemy is unengaged, and since you’re encouraged to attack unactivated units, will most likely do an easy Charge into you. Or the enemy is engaged, which causes Friendly Fire. And since 1.5, failed Panic Tests hurt NW more.

This may be more of a reason to take Jeor now. At least the Morale buff he gives his own unit would help in those Friendly Fire cases.

I like the adaptability of those units, as stated before. It just seems like they could use some help in making it more of a choice. Especially for the Hunters.

Trackers have been really good for me, so i couldn't see any change to them. Shooting in the flank will cripple a unit...and they have the speed to pull that off easily, even with short range. They have a built in attachment (other factions pay 1 point for this) to put vulnerable each round...so they are really cheap for what they do imho.

 

[AlxRaven]

True. It’s easier with the Trackers to do the hit and run tactics and decide when it’s better to charge or make a ranged attack. Some of that comes from the fact their ranged attack is better. And the added free maneuver helps too. With them, your balancing mobility and a better attack profile with locking an enemy down and re-rolls. There are clear pros and cons to both.

It’s not as clear, if at all, with the Hunters. Hunters have the same attack dice whether it’s Ranged or Melee, and lack the mobility. This often leaves them as a sitting duck if they choose Ranged over Melee. Sure, you can add Pypar, but that just makes them even more expensive. Personally, I’d be happy with them if they just changed to Long Range, or added the Quick Fire Order the Crannogmen have. It would make both types of attacks more equally viable, and make them more worth their points. In my opinion.

 

[Oakwolf]

True. It’s easier with the Trackers to do the hit and run tactics and decide when it’s better to charge or make a ranged attack. Some of that comes from the fact their ranged attack is better. And the added free maneuver helps too. With them, your balancing mobility and a better attack profile with locking an enemy down and re-rolls. There are clear pros and cons to both.

It’s not as clear, if at all, with the Hunters. Hunters have the same attack dice whether it’s Ranged or Melee, and lack the mobility. This often leaves them as a sitting duck if they choose Ranged over Melee. Sure, you can add Pypar, but that just makes them even more expensive. Personally, I’d be happy with them if they just changed to Long Range, or added the Quick Fire Order the Crannogmen have. It would make both types of attacks more equally viable, and make them more worth their points. In my opinion.

The issue with Hunters might be to find how they fit in the Night's watch grand scheme of things. Quick Fire (why do they use firearms terms with archery is beyond me) could help, but would it bring the hunters to the table? Pehaps not that much. 8pts is a big decision and the unit is hard to use well (bit like Bastard Girls). Long range could be an option, but that would increase their cost (crossbowmen are 7pts).

The competition from the Trackers is fierce imho, and that's the problem; i think they need to find a niche for that unit and price it accordingly.

 

[Gallahad]

So what are the things you guys think should be debuffed in NW to improve balance across factions? This would also increase inter faction balance as well by decreasing the gap between top performers and average.

I think builder xbows should be a little worse on melee, or at least lose a couple of ranged attacks at only two ranks. I also think the watch recruiter should either be a two point attachment or only get the benefit off a single trigger. Restoring one to two wounds every time a unit attacks is silly for one point.

I've similarly found short range attacks generally not worth their points. Especially with having to measure range from the center arrow of the unit tray. You can basically shoot a single unit tray distance away.

 

[AlxRaven]

I don’t know that we will see much if any more debuffing of NW units. While the data in the link you provided earlier does show them in the lead, it wasn’t much ahead of Free Folk and Lannisters. There are also factors outside the data that need to be considered/balanced by additional time. We’re they seeing more play because they were the “New Hottness”? Was Jon getting all the fun because people only had him and Jeor to choose from due to availability? It’s hard to say.

The change to panic, I feel, was a big debuff to NW already. I’m expecting more buffing of some lagging unit (Hunters and Scorpions) than I am any more debuffing.

Not sure how else to help the Hunters out other than what I mentioned. They could drop the cost, but they seem more inclined to make units fit the cost they have, than to dramatically change the cost itself.

As for the Scorpions... They seem to have the almost sole purpose of dealing with solo units. Once they’re off the board, you’ll have been better off with a different ranged unit. Getting some help from Othell would be nice. Perhaps a more generic buff or point reduction to War Machines or “Builder” units as a replacement ability? Tho that helps more than just the Scorpion... I could see a reduction in the cost of the Scorpion Modification, or the complete incorporation into the base unit... Actually...perhaps Othell could add the ability to add modifications for free or reduced cost. Helps the Scorpions out now, as they are the only unit with one, but allows for additional mods down the road...

Another thought would be to add the unlimited range to the Scorpions that the Stonethrower has...that may be too much tho...

 

[The_RVAlands]

So, with buffs to the Halfhand, and more incoming, according to blurb at bottom of latest article -- how do we think the strength, variety of list, and overall competitiveness of Night's Watch will work out in upcoming events?

I foresee some NW placing well at Adepticon, if the TOs allow the v1.5.1 changes, that is...

 

[AlxRaven]

Really liking the changes made to the Hunters! They’re kind of the opposite of the Bastard Girls when it comes to attacking. Charge in, attack with Melee, retreat to do a ranged attack.

It’ll leave you open for a charge, but if timed right, you could set it up so that if the opponent charges, they open themselves up to another one of your units.