Thinning paint for smooth layering, blending etc.?

[Alowan]

Hi,

I went back into the hobby a few years ago after discovering CMON. And it has been a blast so far - but after a longer break from painting anything I have found time and energy to try to improve my painting and technique.
One thing I am really working with is thinning my layers and getting a better blending - as this is what most people have suggested in my WIP post etc.

In my quest for thinner layer and better blending I have searched the web vigerously and found that many painters use diffrent mediums and addetives to thin their paint. Here I am thinking about flow aid, retarder/extender and medium (like lahman medium or other paint medium).

I have found the following recepie and I am using that as a base for figuring out my own blend.
25% liquitex Slow-dri
25% WN flow improver
50% demineralised water

My question is wether the percentages in this recepie (or any other recepie for that matter) is pure WN flow improver or the suggested 1:20 thinning with water?

After that I have been suggested 1:1 parts solution to paint for basecoating, 4:1 for layering and 10:1 for washes.
+ the following recepie for wash: 1 part water, 1 part matte medium and 10 drops flow releaser and a bit of color.

Anyone have any pointers for what mix to use and how to use it would be most welcome.

- Alowan

p.s. I have searched the web and CMON for answer to my questions but have gotten a bunch of diffrent answers and no real answer to my first question so hopefully the CMON community can help me.

 

[Webmonkey]

The short answer is that there is no "set-in-stone answer" to your question. Thinning, in and of itself is subject to the person weilding the brush. Some people "super-thin" their paint (regardless of the water/additives or their ratios) and do many, many, layers to build up and/or blend their paint. Other's will paint straight out of the pot, and even get some spectacular results. And everyone else tends to fall somewhere in the middle of those extremes. Thinning agents and stuff can also vary widely depending on where you live. Certain additives here in the U.S. may not necessarily be available in the U.K., for example. The environment also plays a factor. A person painting in a dry place like Arizona may need more retarder to keep their paint wet on the pallette,.. a person in a more humid environment like Georgia won't require as much. This is why you are coming across so much conflicting information.

Sorry, I know this hasn't been much help,... but the only real answer that I can give you is to start with your 1:1 or 4:1 ratio, and continually adjust it until you find "what works for you"

 

[Alowan]

Thanks. Any tip on wheter the 25% is thinned or straight from the bottle?

 

[shponglefan]

Personally, I wouldn't get too hung up on specific ratios. Especially since different paint brands or even different paint colors will require different levels of thinning to achieve the same result. The important thing is to understand the physical paint behavior. With practice, this becomes second nature.

Generally, I tend to use a 50/50 mix of Vallejo thinner and water for thinning. And then I will thin down to different levels depending on if I'm glazing, washing, etc.

 

[MAXXxxx]

originally: straigth from the bottle.

but you shouldn't be so analytical of it for a number of reasons:
- it's not real science, a lot depends on subjective feelings
- it's not really needed, even if you use only water you can do anything, sometimes easier than with the additives, sometimes harder.
- usage and mix effectivity depends a lot on where you live (mostly how humid the area is)
- it also depends on brand (VMC needs more thinning than VAC for example and while old Rackham colors are a lot thicker than vallejo they don't need more than about 1:1 thinning even for glazes)
- it depends on the color (generally light colors are thinned more in the bottle, then dark ones)
- it depends on the color (generally light colors cover worse than dark ones even at the same thinnes --> darks need more thinning)
- it depends on the batch (my old VGC-bleachedbone had a good consistency, when I used it up I bought a new one (same company, same color) it was so watery I almost cried)

The ratios you have (both for the mix and for thinning) are in general super guidelines, but that's that. If you limit yourself too much to adhere to the prescribed mixes you'll loose the fun in painting.


good mix examples (mixing medium is irrelevant, can be water, can be some magic-mix):
- basecoat: if painted on the newspaper the brush flows easily leaving no mark, but the paint is as opaque as it can be (ideally you can't read the text)
- layer : same tryout, but now you can see the text behind the paint, but it's still hard to read
- glaze: paper is tinted in the color, text is easily readable

 

[oistene]

Yeah, brands are very different. When I speed paint, I can use VMC straight from the pot, while GW needs to be watered significantly. For 'regular' painting, the VMC will also need a splash of water, and the GW will need a lot of water.

I should probably water all my paints more, though.

 

[airhead]

I addition to different brand and / or colors in the same line being different. We have different days. Some days here is 90% humidity and 90 degrees. Others like today are 75 with about 60% humidity. Makes the paints dry different.

You use a lamp close to the mini? It will affect drying as it heats the mini. Fluorescent or LED give off much less heat.

Some painters paint straight from the pot. But to me that is like putting on stucco. The other extreme is "Juicers" that thin the paint so much that only a slight tint is applied with each layer.

Take your pick, play with it and see what fits your style.

 

[rokkin]

thick and "paint from the pot" works great for layering, just make sure your application is _loaded_ though I prefer having a little water to give a little bit of flow. Don't go crazy and brush it out too much, let it sit, thick.

 

[rokkin]

I think it was Ben Comets who said you shouldn't rely on recipes but rather adjust things as you go. When I was a newbie I would layer the basecoat really thinn and it took ages, god I was such an idiot.
Rely on thick basecoat and thick layers then use glazes to blend/adjust/tint whatever your need may be to create a gradient. The key to this technique is that you have very hard contrast. So for example right now im painting a flayed daemon so I went for Basecoat Sanguine(Thick) -> Layer thick pinkinsh colour (Glazefriendly) Layer highlight Midlund flesh thick. Now I have the gradient I am pleased with so time for various glazes just in the transitions (this is how I do not how you must do )

the thick layers are merely a sketch, a foundation of what all else builds. You can call it the underpainting.

This is just my experience so far

thick = 1 part water to maybe 3-4 parts paint

 

[Alowan]

Thanks for the replies.

I see where you all are comming from in regard to figuring out what works for myself and my style. Personally I am 100% sure I want to dillute my paint a lot since straight from the bottle and stright from the bottle + a little water simply is too thick for my taste. Visible brushstrokes and an glossyness when the layer gets too thick + glazing and feathering is almost impossible.

so I am quite sure I want to use my addetives. The thing was that untill now i have used destilled water but now I want to try with addetives. As said I know I should figure out what works for me but would really appriciate some tips on wether you should dilute the WN flow enhancer 1:10 as said on bottle before adding to your grub mix or not. And if anyone have any experience they can share in regard to that. There is quite a big diffrence between 25% and 2,5% and I would like to be at least within the ballpark when I start to try to figure things out myself so any experience with this mix is apriciated.

Once again thanks for the replies.

 

[Ritual]

Personally, I would get rid of the slo-dri. It will only make the layers take longer to dry, increasing the risk of you going over a not-fully dry layer with new paint ripping up the old layer in the process. I can't see any reason for extending the drying time when you do layering.

 

[AndyG]

hmmm I don't know ritual, with straight layering I like to put a little Vallejo glaze medium in as I find it reduces the chalkiness a bit. Slo dry can also be useful when doing very fine freehand. But yep it can be a real pain waiting for the layers to dry. I'm undecided on the subject pros and cons either way I feel.

 

[Alowan]

Thanks for you input. Will try with and without slow dri.. Can see the problem with the waiting yet I can also see the pro of having a smoother blend - I am a really patient painter so might fit me..

 

[Ritual]

@Andy and Alowan
I was only speaking of the slo-dri. Glaze medium or similar can surely have its uses, although you can manage without it as well.

 

[Stewsayer]

Alowan,

With the 25%/2.5% thing do a test with both and see what is closer to what you are after in terms of paint flow etc. You only need a couple of drops for a test.

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

Hi,

I went back into the hobby a few years ago after discovering CMON. And it has been a blast so far - but after a longer break from painting anything I have found time and energy to try to improve my painting and technique.
One thing I am really working with is thinning my layers and getting a better blending - as this is what most people have suggested in my WIP post etc.

In my quest for thinner layer and better blending I have searched the web vigerously and found that many painters use diffrent mediums and addetives to thin their paint. Here I am thinking about flow aid, retarder/extender and medium (like lahman medium or other paint medium).

I have found the following recepie and I am using that as a base for figuring out my own blend.
25% liquitex Slow-dri
25% WN flow improver
50% demineralised water

My question is wether the percentages in this recepie (or any other recepie for that matter) is pure WN flow improver or the suggested 1:20 thinning with water?

After that I have been suggested 1:1 parts solution to paint for basecoating, 4:1 for layering and 10:1 for washes.
+ the following recepie for wash: 1 part water, 1 part matte medium and 10 drops flow releaser and a bit of color.

Anyone have any pointers for what mix to use and how to use it would be most welcome.

- Alowan

p.s. I have searched the web and CMON for answer to my questions but have gotten a bunch of diffrent answers and no real answer to my first question so hopefully the CMON community can help me.

Poor guy. Everyone is so obsessed with their own opinions that we have failed to address his actual question. In regards to the percentage of flow improver, it's safe to say that it's 25%. I haven't used WN flow improver, but Ive used different flow improvers and you can use quite a bit of the stuff without it making your paint act strange. If you cut it first and THEN added it to the mix, the amount would be so small as to be inconsequential. So I'd try a quarter flow improver in your mix. Hope this helps!

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

hmmm I don't know ritual, with straight layering I like to put a little Vallejo glaze medium in as I find it reduces the chalkiness a bit. Slo dry can also be useful when doing very fine freehand. But yep it can be a real pain waiting for the layers to dry. I'm undecided on the subject pros and cons either way I feel.

I operate the exact same way. And without slow dry I probably couldn't freehand at all. For those that layer with it, I think they are pure wet blenders. Even when wet blending though I find slow dry to be unnecessary. However, slow dry DOES make the paint flow a bit more predictable. It makes it almost as predictable as painting straight from the pot, by giving the paint an almost falsely thick quality.

Glaze medium is pretty essential to me. I must say that Lahmian Medium is superior to VMC Glaze Medium, but not enough so to justify the $4 for a tiny pot versus a giant bottle from Vallejo.

 

[Trevor]

Slo-dry or retarder can be very useful in hot/dry climates. Otherwise, it depends upon what works for you. I've tried various additives and usually just end up using water (mostly because I forget to use the medium i.e. it doesn't make that much difference). Having said that I do use VMC matt varnish in Citadel washes to change what they do (and instead of water, which makes it go glossy), VMC white glaze when layering, and VMC glaze medium or matt varnish if I want a more transparent layer.

 

[SkelettetS]

Personally, I would get rid of the slo-dri. It will only make the layers take longer to dry, increasing the risk of you going over a not-fully dry layer with new paint ripping up the old layer in the process. I can't see any reason for extending the drying time when you do layering.

agree 100%.
i find the usage of mediums just a way to make things harder than they have to be. i.e i dillute paints quite a lot for glazing and i exclusivly only use water.

 

[Ritual]

I sometimes use a medium of some sort, but I always only use them when I have a particular need for that particular medium. If you always, as a rule, add a complete cocktail of media to your paint, then you have simply made things awkward for yourself. Instead of learning how to handle your paints with only water you've learned how to handle your paints with a lot of stuff in them and that has become your normal state. It is better to learn the basics using only water and then use media if/when you have a need for a particular effect. You may even, like Skel, come to the conclusion you NEVER need any.