Storing Paint & Other Queries

[NiallCampbell]

Good morning folks,

I apologise in advance if this has been discussed anywhere previously, I will be searching stickeies etc but I enjoy getting responses to my newbie questions too so bear with me

A few things -

1. Since taking up miniature painting I've exclusively used Games Workshop paints. Not due to any overwhelming loyalty to the brand, mainly because I don't know what else is out there. I see a lot of references here to the Vallejo (spelling?) range...are these a superior range of paints? (I'm aware a change in paint won't necessarily improve my rudimentary painting skills haha )

2. A lot of my Games Workshop pots are slightly drying out/becoming 'gungy' over time - I find that the old white topped 90's paints are generally in better condition than some of my more recent purchases! Is there anything I can do to prevent this? Typically all my paints are stored at room temperature, vertically in a modelling case. Gungy paint makes for poor blending! When I do use them I try to thin them out with a dab of water on my brush. It tends to get me by but I'm wasting a lot of paint due to this 'gungy' paint gathering in the pots.

Anyway any information appreciated.

Many thanks!

NC.

 

[Wyrmypops]

Most of mine are still GW paints. Same reason, it's availability and a previous unawareness of what's out there. Since joining this community I've taken to other ranges. Ain't bothered buyig a whole new set, but when replacements are needed I've turned to other ranges, and while I was doing an order it seemed daft not to add a few paints not adequately covered by the GW range.

I find the Vallejo Game Colour range insignificantly different to the GW range. There are colour comparisn charts out there on a quick Google that show the names of the paints, and are clearly meant to mirror the GW range. I've a few of them, and they're fine. The come in an eye-dropper bottle which has pros and cons to it.
I shall pick them up over GW paints for those specific paints I can't do without (Bubonic Brown), for the price if nowt else.

The Vallejo Model Colour range (also in eye-dropper bottles), seems a superior brand of paint. Purportedly made up of finer grades. I've picked up a few of them after the metallics being lauded hereabouts and do indeed find them a significant enough improvement to warrant picking them up. In the future I shall first turn to this range when replacing paints I've run out of.
I would echo the urgings of for their metallics. They really are splendid, with the metallic fleks being of a finer grind. They also have a few tones in the silver and yellow metallics

P3, I've bit a few of theirs. The white paint has been mentioned by others before as being of a different mix, less prone to chalkyness. Something to do with zinc if I recall correctly. I've been using mine for a few months now and haven't had a problem with it, but that's hardly scientific testing and a difference (if any) hasn't made me sit up. Though I would look at the range again when doing an order, for the paints they may have not covered by others, I got lucky in picking up a Coal Black paint that is a great highlight for regular Black given that it's really a dark turquoise and cuts out a lot of mixing.

I might look at picking up some Reaper paints. I'm intrigued by their triad packs, a trinity of paints to cover the dark to light transitions. That'd be a nifty effort saver for problem mixes. I'm sure we all run into parts of the colour wheel that give us issues, or with browns or flesh tones. These could potentially be a boon in that regard.

 

[Yuggoth]

Vallejo is not necessarily better, both ranges have advantages and disadvantages.

Here is what I like about vallejo:
Vallejo gives you a bit more paint for your $$ and has a thinner consistency which means you don`t have to thin that much. They come in dropper bottles which means that the paint is less likely to dry out when in use. A very big plus for vallejo is that they have a two ranges, game colour (a copy of the GW-line) and model colour. The second one gives you more variety and adds a lot more "realistc" or muted tones. In addition they have some nice airbrush colours which can be used when VERY fine pigmentation is needed (their metals are ace). There are also some "special" paints like metallic medium (a very shiny silver which comes handy as a final highlight when painting metals) which I find quite useful and have no counterpart in GWs range.

And here are the downsides (imho):
Some painters including me think that the metals in the normal (game colour) range aren`t as good as their counterparts, the same goes for GWs newer line of really good washes/inks.

Some vallejo paints do not cover as good as their GW counterparts. The pigments seem to settle more quickly and the dropper bottles mean you can`t stir the bottle that easily. Also the small hole in the dropper in prone to clogging, so you need to use a needle every now and then.
I would suggest to do the following: Buy stainless steel balls (from a bike shop) and put them in the bottles BEFORE they start to become clumpy/settled. But you still need to shake your arms of with vallejo ;-)

The steel balls might be an solution for your current paint problem. I would also suggest to use destilled water when re-thinning your paint. Keeping your paint out of heat and direct sunlight does make them live longer. I even know a guy who keeps them in the fridge! (but i dont know if that really helps or if it is just a tick of him)

Best regards
Alex

 

[cucaiothegreat]

I would suggest to do the following: Buy stainless steel balls (from a bike shop) and put them in the bottles BEFORE they start to become clumpy/settled. But you still need to shake your arms of with vallejo ;-)

I have to ask an advice about the steel spheres: any idea about the diameter I must bought? And how many I should put in a "standard" GW (as the majority of my paints are currently GW) bottle?

Many thanks in advance.

 

[airhead]

Your issue #2 is why I gave up GW paints. (Mine were the older prior to the flip open tops. You had to carry as set of large pliers to open them.)

Paint brands:
GW. Very available, good quality. Most painting recipies refer to GW colors.

Vellajo Game Colors: Color matched to GW with very similar names. Dropper bottles means less waste and repeatable color blends.

Vellajo Model Color: Designed for military modelers. Colors like British redcoat, Confederate gray, etc. Not as vivid as VGC and does not seem to have the same binder. Will rub off easy if not clear coated.

Reaper Master Series: Dropper bottles similar to Vellajo. Colors are available in triads (highlight, midtone, shadow) - which is great for newer painters. Do not match GW's pallet well. Lots of binder. (these are the hardest to scrub off a ceramic pallet of any paints I've used.)

That is my experience: There are a few other miniature paints out there - Foundry, etc. but I am not experienced with them.

 

[ChemicalFencer]

Others have already given good answers already with the advantages to dropper bottles etc so I won't repeat it again.

Vallejo do tend to have traces of Cadmium in their paints which is very toxic - which is why I don't lick my brush when using my Vallejo paints. Strangely enough the bottles claim to be non toxic. I bought their Model Air Metallics on Dragonsreach's suggestion and they are excellent. Very fine pigment. The term 'painting with liquid metal' was used and I have to say I'm in complete agreement. I do like them, they have a large flesh tone selection in their model colour range.

P3 and also a very nice range - I have been buying more of these. Available in round white topped pots. I have heard that they claim not to split or settle - though I could be wrong.

You might also want to look at Coat d'Arms (available from Black Hat, or Maelstrom Games) as their fantasy range are the original citadel colours and they are in round white topped pots like the Citadels where. They still keep some of the original names too.

To address the issue of grungy tops. When I open up a Citadel paint I don't open it fully (or and of the flip top lids) - take when I need from the lid and put it on my pallet. I close the lid as soon as I have taken the paint. I got into this as the old hexagon bottle lids came off totally so I was more careful. If you are referring to the screw off lids - I have no idea. I bought a few of them when they came out first and decided that I still had enough of the old ones to do me for now. Terrible design. All I did was to scrape off the top rim.

Hope this helps,

CF

 

[Yuggoth]

Regarding the steel balls (I used google to find out that they are called "bearing balls" in english): I wouldn`t go too small, because the added weight of a bigger ball makes the shaking easier. On the other hand, if the ball is too big It won`t get in the "corners" of the paintbottle. All that I have bought are now in my paints so I cant take measures but I would guess they were aprox. 4(?) mm in diameter. Would probably go bigger next time. Other small but heavyweight pieces will work too, just make sure they don`t rust and aren`t rough

 

[Wyrmypops]

When I got turned towards ikkle balls to agitate the paint I ran into just what to search for. Ball bearings tend to throw up technical items, expensive for the amount needed. I plumped for ammo for air guns, Can get a load of them for not too much money, and they've been working a treat.

 

[Sir Wulf]

Instead of stainless steel bearings, I've used glass beads (the solid kind, not the kind with a hole for a cord) in GW's plastic containers. To thin them when they thicken up, I add a mix of distilled water and matte medium.

When the paints get really bad, I've managed to salvage some by packing them in a rock tumbler overnight.

 

[cucaiothegreat]

Instead of stainless steel bearings, I've used glass beads (the solid kind, not the kind with a hole for a cord) in GW's plastic containers. To thin them when they thicken up, I add a mix of distilled water and matte medium.

When the paints get really bad, I've managed to salvage some by packing them in a rock tumbler overnight.

I have tried both with glass beads and Euro 1 cent coins, but the first are too big I.M.H.O. and the latter have rusted in some cases, ruining the color bottle!

Regarding the steel balls (I used google to find out that they are called "bearing balls" in english): I wouldn`t go too small, because the added weight of a bigger ball makes the shaking easier. On the other hand, if the ball is too big It won`t get in the "corners" of the paintbottle. All that I have bought are now in my paints so I cant take measures but I would guess they were aprox. 4(?) mm in diameter. Would probably go bigger next time. Other small but heavyweight pieces will work too, just make sure they don`t rust and aren`t rough

I have therefore decided to give a try to steel balls. I have found them in two sizes: 2.38mm and 4.67mm diameter. I think I will go for the latter, then... how much bigger you will try?

 

[Tabris_]

I have seem somebody make a test with the stainless steel balls and find that they can get rusty with time. He used a salt mixture to simulate a more extended use and found that in a few days they began to get rust. Not sure about extended periods in the paint pot. The same guy suggested using beads instead.

 

[NiallCampbell]

Folks,

Many thanks for your informative responses - I may give these Vallejo colours a bash to try them out =)

Any recommended retailers in the UK? I tend to buy a lot of paint from Ebay...(although ofc you run the risk of getting second hand rubbish!!!)

With regards to the ball bearings...not a bad idea - I may try it for the colours I know I use a lot and get exposed to air often.

Seriously though does anyone remember the old 90's white top GW bottles? They were perfect if you ask me, I still have some in perfect usable conditions! I hated it when they switched to those horrible screw top bottles - terrible design!

My paints are currently stored in a converted GW miniature carrying case. Perfect for paints really and keeps them out of sunlight/exposed to heat and so on.

Ta.

NC.

 

[Yuggoth]

Today I fished one of them out of the paint to get the measurements. they are indeed approx. 4 mm (hard to tell exactly because of the rounded surface.and the straight ruler). If I could get them I would go slightly bigger (6mm?) but I have to say the ones I have work fine. Only problem is, if the paint is REALLY clumped, the ball will sometimes get stuck in the slimy paint glob and has to be shaken loose.

The ball was in the paint for two month now and there is no trace of rust or other oxidation. Maybe the ones from the saltwater test wheren`t really "stainless"? Might I ask where you are based? Here in Germany we have quite excessive quality controls (in fact so excessive that it is sometimes hard to get some useful goodies from overseas *grr*) so "stainless" tents to be a believable label. guess its the same in the rest of the EU.

regarding the airgun ammunition: wouldn`t these be to lightweight? My brother has some and I would have guessed that they would nearly float on the thicker GW paint...
Regarding the costs you might be right. It was 4 Euro for 22 Balls which makes it a bit expensive just to agitate your paint. But on the other hand, you can re-use them endlessly if your paint ist emptied.

 

[cucaiothegreat]

Today I fished one of them out of the paint to get the measurements. they are indeed approx. 4 mm (hard to tell exactly because of the rounded surface.and the straight ruler). If I could get them I would go slightly bigger (6mm?) but I have to say the ones I have work fine. Only problem is, if the paint is REALLY clumped, the ball will sometimes get stuck in the slimy paint glob and has to be shaken loose.

The ball was in the paint for two month now and there is no trace of rust or other oxidation. Maybe the ones from the saltwater test wheren`t really "stainless"? Might I ask where you are based? Here in Germany we have quite excessive quality controls (in fact so excessive that it is sometimes hard to get some useful goodies from overseas *grr*) so "stainless" tents to be a believable label. guess its the same in the rest of the EU.

regarding the airgun ammunition: wouldn`t these be to lightweight? My brother has some and I would have guessed that they would nearly float on the thicker GW paint...
Regarding the costs you might be right. It was 4 Euro for 22 Balls which makes it a bit expensive just to agitate your paint. But on the other hand, you can re-use them endlessly if your paint ist emptied.

Many thanks for all these useful info.
I will go for steel ball. I have just bought a batch here on eBay.uk (these are about 4.6mm diameter).
They are stated as stainless and "won't rust", so they should be ideal for using in paint bottles.
If they get clogged in the paint, I usually add some drops of water (in variable quantity depending on how dried is the paint) and then mix all with a cocktail stick.
I used this method several times when my other "shakers" (e.g. small coins and/or glass beads) got stuck in the bottle and it always worked well.
All you have to do is to mix it thoroughly and then shake well the bottle.
The last thing I must now figure out, when I will get the steel balls, is how many of them put in every bottle...

 

[NiallCampbell]

I'd imagine three or four max would do the trick (especially in a small GW tub of paint).

On a related matter...anyone got preference on brands of paint brushes (I know there's a few stickies/articles on this...) I was thinking about maybe trying out a few Vallejo ones. My GW ones are not only expensive but more often than not they get 'hook' tipped over time, split or just fray over time.

NC.

 

[ChemicalFencer]

There are quite a few topics on this but what I can say is to check out Hinton's youtube Video below. He also has some other videos on there - check him out. The video also talks about cleaning and care.

Personally I have been using Raphael brushes lately and I have found them to be excellent. I do also have GW brushes, and WN series 7s but the Raphael's are the best I have bought. Some rave about one company while other disagree and say another one is better and so on, there is no definitive answer, its all a matter of personal choice and experience. When searching for some look for kolinsky sable brushes for water colour painting and get a couple of different sizes. Have a look at Les Bursley's video at the end. I think he goes through the different sizes and how one company's size 1 is different to another's. Les also goes through different paints in another video - have a look at his youtube channel.

Hope this helps,

CF

 

[bronzeback40]

I currently use a combination of P3 and Vallejo Game Color paints. Cannot complain about either, a few nitpicks aside.

P3: Uses a liquid pigment, which makes the paint very smooth. Make sure to use a good sable or Kolinsky sable brush. Synthetics do not work well with these. (Some might say synthetics don't work well at all, but with a ground pigment paint, it has a little bit of grip.) Very nice for base coating, blending, layering, absolutely awesome for washes.

VGC: Need to shake the hell out of them. PS, I use copper balls. Oh, and the reds need to be constantly mixed once you've thinned them.

Reaper Master Paints: Haven't tried these yet nut have never heard any negative comments. There is a review here.

Make sure oyu're using a good brush. For once, I'll praise Citadel for their brush line. They're a decent quality natural hair (not sure type) and hold up to use with a bit of proper brush use and care. I use them up for basecoats, some highlighting, and washes, and they are excellent for these. Check out the articles on proper brush care and you'll be fine.

 

[gsr15]

Seriously though does anyone remember the old 90's white top GW bottles? They were perfect if you ask me, I still have some in perfect usable conditions! I hated it when they switched to those horrible screw top bottles - terrible design!

I've still got a number of those bottles, about half my supply actually survived 15 years in storage (did need to add some water though). They did seal really well, the problem I always had with them was that they were a pain in the ass to get open and the tabs and hinges tended to break off pretty early on, I've got to use a screwdriver to open them now. The screw tops were a nightmare, I still need pliers to get my one remaining bottle open, glad they killed those. I don't have enough time with the newest ones to see how well they seal, but they are a ton easier to open. (Now if only they weren't nearly half as much paint as the originals for the same price.)

 

[NiallCampbell]

Thanks again for the advice -

I've been unable to find a local stockist for Vallejo Game Colour (off to a webstore I go!!) but the good news is I can pick up some Sable brushes from local shops - Newton series or otherwise.

Hopefully this will all improve my painting technique (although ofc plenty practice is required!)

 

[cucaiothegreat]

I've still got a number of those bottles, about half my supply actually survived 15 years in storage (did need to add some water though). They did seal really well, the problem I always had with them was that they were a pain in the ass to get open and the tabs and hinges tended to break off pretty early on, I've got to use a screwdriver to open them now. The screw tops were a nightmare, I still need pliers to get my one remaining bottle open, glad they killed those. I don't have enough time with the newest ones to see how well they seal, but they are a ton easier to open. (Now if only they weren't nearly half as much paint as the originals for the same price.)

I had the same problem with the lids of the old "white cap" GW bottles, and I used a screwdriver too to open them. But they are very good for storing paints and the few I still have are useable even after 15 years.
The next generation, with screw tops, were awful. The few I had are now completely dried because the caps don't close well, and also opening them is a pain.
The GW bottles available now are much better, I use them without problem. They can be opened without problem and it is also simple to clean the top if needed. I usually try to recycle them, especially the ones that once contained inks and washes, and I have used them to store paints that I bought in screw top bottles. However, they do not seal as well as the old ones with white cap.
Also the Foundation bottles are not so bad, but I definitely prefere the other ones, because the lids are very difficult to clean if they get dirty with color, and it is a thing that happens quite often to me!