Skipping the basecoat?

[GamerDad]

Just starting a new thread here as I don't want to derail the other threads.....

I was wondering what would the effect be if I skipped applying a "basecoat" and went straight for my color-of-choice when painting? In my particular situation, I use a white primer, but following the GW recommendation, I use XV-88 as a basecoat for my Tau armor then apply Tau Ochre to get it to a lighter shade. However, after a good few coats of Ochre, I'm still not happy with how bright the armor is. Any ideas on whether skipping the XV-88 and going straight for the Ochre is a good technique? I tried this on one of the legs, which will be covered black later on, and it seems to be covering well after a few coats plus it seems to be closer to how "bright" I want the end result to be.

However, I'd like to ask here before committing as there might be some newbie potholes I am missing here. Oh, and the GW "how-to" guide used a spray gun to coat the mini with XV-88 and Tau Ochre, which I guess is why it covered so well -- I can't seem to get the same coverage with the Ochre with a paintbrush.

Thanks!

 

[Zab]

Take what GW shows you with a grain of salt. Their guides skip all kinds of steps. There is no reason you shouldn't use the light ocher over the white primer if it gives you the color and coverage you want. In fact many mini painters use white to start their lighter/brighter colored minis (pinks and yellows in particular) with a few glazes and then shade darker with washes in selective places. You are on the right track. Just do what works for you and don't be afraid to experiment!

 

[Jbickley00]

GW I think contemplates using a black primer, and the base coat is crucial for providing a foundation for brighter colors. Starting with white, you can go direct to your color and shade down.

 

[Broke n English]

I paint yellows a lot, usually from a skrag brown undercoat, by the sounds of your colour it would seem to be giving you a brighter start when you go straight to Ochre, I'd carry on with that Getting smooth coats with brushes on larger surfaces just takes practice unfortunately I've never painted a tau btw

 

[GamerDad]

What? No warnings of painting doom? No prophecies of tearing the warp of space/time if I don't use a base color as basecoat?

I asked the GW guy this same question and he said "It won't cover properly" and something along the lines of "the white primer will show through".... is it just me or does this mean he doesn't know what he's talking about? Or are they taught to follow a script? I took a look at the "how-to" guide for the Tau and it says to basecoat with XV-88 and then layer with Tau Ochre, but like I said, they used a spray gun to do this and both XV-88 and Ochre were used to coat the entire model evenly, so I don't see why even bother with XV-88 if it's just getting covered by another color anyway?

Having said this, I wonder why such a step is recommended in the first place? I see the point in putting on a darker layer first then a brighter layer... if you don't want the end result to look as bright as the bright layer --- the darker, lower layer will "mute" the brighter layer, I presume? But if such is the case, why not simply mix the two colors on the palette, and then apply the new paint as one layer instead of laying down two layers?

So far I've been able to get a smooth and even cover using a "Layer" paint simply by applying a few slightly-watered-down layers so it seems like its all good. I wonder how this will work on bigger models like the Tau Broadside or Crisis battlesuits?

 

[Ainnst]

You have to remember that you are painting minis - i.e. 3D models. One of the big reasons to go from dark to light is simply ease of brush access - the parts that will be brighter are the edges, and thus are easier to access with a brush than a crevice. There is no reason that you can't go light to dark, it is simply more difficult to do cleanly. With any paint, your basecoat will be your limiter for what the subsequent layers can do as a result of translucency. Thus, a white basecoat is better for brighter colours, because it will show through better than a black basecoat would (e.g. try painting bright yellow over a black basecoat - you will need so many layers to get it to look clean that you will lose half your details).

As far as what the GW guys say - you can largely ignore them. Their job is to sell, not to teach you to paint well. Listen to the experienced people here on the forum, maybe throw together a WIP thread, and you'll learn tons more than you ever would in the average GW store.

Regarding larger surface areas -i.e. the tanks - you'll come to learn that they are an entirely different beast that painting smaller minis. Since there is so much less gradient change in the surface, it is very unforgiving for blending purposes. Take it slow.

Above all, remember that you will get better over time. Just remember to have fun with it!

 

[GamerDad]

Okay, I tried going from white primer straight to Tau Ochre. I still water down my paints a bit as I'm not comfortable with a "straight-from-the-pot" application, though I'm not watering it down as much as I used to.

Here is one of the models with a single layer of Tau Light Ochre:




On this pic, the model has had two coats of Ochre on the main body, and the antennae and the arm pads have one coat for comparison:




Third coat of Ochre on body, twice on the antennae and arm pads:




Here is a comparison pic. The body has had three coats of Ochre while the Fire Warrior gun has had a prime of XV-88 and countless coats of Ochre:




Another pic of the Tau Fire Warrior. The gun has had a prime of XV-88 and countless coats of Ochre, but the are between the hands (lower area of the gun) has had three coats of just Ochre after the white primer. Is it just me or does the gun and the rest of the model look like the paint's on too thick when compared to just the area with just three coats of Ochre?




Anyway, I guess that clinches it. I'm skipping the basecoat of XV-88 and just applying Tau Light Ochre straight away. Less layers = more detail.

 

[GamerDad]

You have to remember that you are painting minis - i.e. 3D models. One of the big reasons to go from dark to light is simply ease of brush access - the parts that will be brighter are the edges, and thus are easier to access with a brush than a crevice. There is no reason that you can't go light to dark, it is simply more difficult to do cleanly.

What's wrong with painting the entire mini on the light color, and then just rely on the "natural/artificial lighting" to create the shadows? I don't intend to do shading or anything on these models, at least not yet.

With any paint, your basecoat will be your limiter for what the subsequent layers can do as a result of translucency. Thus, a white basecoat is better for brighter colours, because it will show through better than a black basecoat would (e.g. try painting bright yellow over a black basecoat - you will need so many layers to get it to look clean that you will lose half your details).

I think you mean "primer" instead of basecoat? I thought it was primer - basecoat - layers?

As far as what the GW guys say - you can largely ignore them. Their job is to sell, not to teach you to paint well.

Granted, but I'd expect them to at least offer sensible advice. So far, I've been listening to them but I'm thinking "are you serious?!"

Just remember to have fun with it!

I'd have more fun if I'm getting the results I want. So far, I'm more like "experimenting" than painting.

 

[gohkm]

What's wrong with painting the entire mini on the light color, and then just rely on the "natural/artificial lighting" to create the shadows? I don't intend to do shading or anything on these models, at least not yet.
The scale of the miniature is usually too small to have that natural lighting effect. When one applies paint, one is trying to give the illusion of depth to a miniature; hence, the shading and highlighting. If one just tacks on the light colour, the miniature will eventually look 'flat'. Why not try painting in a darker, watered-down shade into the lines of your Tau? It makes an awful lot of difference. The Fire Warrior rifle may be a good place to start for this.


I think you mean "primer" instead of basecoat? I thought it was primer - basecoat - layers?
That's right. Primer is a specific chemical compound formulated to provide 'bite' for paint. I wouldn't get hung up on the terminology just yet - just be certain to prime, then slap on your basecoat on top of that. The lighter the colours one starts with, the brighter the end result; and vice versa.


Granted, but I'd expect them to at least offer sensible advice. So far, I've been listening to them but I'm thinking "are you serious?!"
The GW staff have to say something. Be nice .

I'd have more fun if I'm getting the results I want. So far, I'm more like "experimenting" than painting.
Experimenting is part of the fun. I would suggest aiming for an even basecoat (like the Tau gun on your Fire Warrior) for now. There's lots of things to learn in this field. The main thing is to practice. Just look at Jennifer Haley's website - I don't know if you've seen her early works, but some of those really left things to be desired; even the grandmasters started like everyone else.

Perhaps the most important thing to apply here is patience. Just take it slow, figure out one new technique at a time and practice that, then go on.
Don't lose heart if you don't see improvement quickly - I've been painting 8 years now, and I'm still barely competent with a brush.

 

[GamerDad]

Thanks for the reply, gohkm!

The scale of the miniature is usually too small to have that natural lighting effect. When one applies paint, one is trying to give the illusion of depth to a miniature; hence, the shading and highlighting. If one just tacks on the light colour, the miniature will eventually look 'flat'. Why not try painting in a darker, watered-down shade into the lines of your Tau? It makes an awful lot of difference. The Fire Warrior rifle may be a good place to start for this.

Obviously, the pics do not show the "finished product" yet. I am still contemplating my approach to the main colors of the model. I think you are referring to maybe a wash or something to give things a bit more depth? If so, I have a thread here about using a marker pen to deal with the lines/details. What I meant about lighting and shadows would be for areas like under the Tau Fire Warrior helmet or on the undersides of arms or legs. Maybe some people will color them with a darker shade or a wash, but I intend to leave it at the Tau Light Ochre color and rely on the room lighting to "make" the shadows".

I wouldn't get hung up on the terminology just yet - just be certain to prime, then slap on your basecoat on top of that.

Not "getting hung up," but just wanted to clarify. I have read that some people don't even prime, so just wanted to be sure. Also having a crisis with "basecoats" at the moment, I always thought everyone started with a layer of the Foundation or Base paints, then applied their Layer paints, but it seems like I can go straight to my Layer paint as a "basecoat"!!

The GW staff have to say something. Be nice :smile:.

I am. That's why that thought stayed in my head!

Experimenting is part of the fun. I would suggest aiming for an even basecoat (like the Tau gun on your Fire Warrior) for now. There's lots of things to learn in this field. The main thing is to practice.

No idea who that lady is, sorry. However, re: experimenting, I know it is a learning experience of itself but at the moment, I am simply irritated about seeming to be going around in circles. Everyone makes it seem like "it's so easy," but unless I'm going for a "painted by a 10-year old using GW's brushes" level, it sure isn't as easy as they say it is! Also, unlike other painters here, this is simply a means to an end. Once I have my army, I don't think I'll be painting any more, nor will I be buying models just to paint them.

 

[MAXXxxx]

based on the pics and the usual lazyness, I'd go with the "2 layers of Tau Ochre" as a base.
- after the 2nd layer it looks pretty good to me
- as you wrote: it takes a lot less steps than the XV88 than layer up method.

So go with the one that takes the less steps to look good instead of the 'official' way. (especially as I have problems with the GW way, either they make simple things look hard to do, or vice-versa hard looks simple but only because steps are left out)

 

[GamerDad]

Thanks for that! I'm starting to learn to distrust the "official way," which kinda irritates me to some degree. But I do understand where you're coming from. Having painted a few Space Marines for my son, it never is the "4 easy steps" as mentioned on the how-to guides.

For some reason, it looks better on the pic, but 2 layers of Ochre isn't very even, hence the third coat. But the issue is the same whether going over white primer or XV-88 base, so might as well skip the base, reduce the layer count a bit, and get the brighter color I want as well! Win-win!

 

[Dragonsreach]

Thanks for that! I'm starting to learn to distrust the "official way," which kinda irritates me to some degree. But I do understand where you're coming from. Having painted a few Space Marines for my son, it never is the "4 easy steps" as mentioned on the how-to guides.
Its a long standing belief in our community that GW's guides miss out some steps, so I (and a general WE) understand your frustration on this.
I've long gone past the 3 colours highlights used in GW's product guides and stepped away from table top painting towards a more competition orientated approach. But for someone starting out in this hobby now from GW's doorstep the main "Rival" to high quality painting for the advertisments is no longer there, I'm refering to the original Rackham store paintjobs of course. While I'm not saying that Rackham made GW "Up their Game" they gave painters pause for thought. Now we see far better painting being used on other manufacturers advertising.


For some reason, it looks better on the pic, but 2 layers of Ochre isn't very even, hence the third coat. But the issue is the same whether going over white primer or XV-88 base, so might as well skip the base, reduce the layer count a bit, and get the brighter color I want as well! Win-win!

I can understand how disheartening it can be especially for a teenager starting out and believing that "4 easy steps" will get a showcase standard, then finding out that those steps aren't quite as easy.
However there are ways to beat the problem.
There are two manufacturers of "Graffiti art" spray paints Montana Gold and Liquitex, both of whom have lots of colours all of which can be used as a "Rattle Can Spray" base colour. They can be painted on top of with ordinary acrylic as these paints are themselves acrylic.
You would be best off finding a Bricks and Mortar Art supplies shop and taking a colour sample with you for the Ochre you're looking for as I've found that the Liquitex colour sample charts are to say the least misleading.

 

[GamerDad]

While the current "system" may be good enough for the "meh" players, anyone who is into this game because of the beautiful minis, even if just slightly, will be put off by this "deceit."

Although I appreciate your advice, I don't want to inject yet another variable into the mix, not until I finish a few dozen minis. I want to keep this as simple as possible, and as cheap as possible, before I incur the wrath of She Who Must Be Obeyed. For example, I keep hearing how easy it is with a proper airbrush.... lots of videos use airbrushes as well, but I don't want to have to learn how to spray, how to maintain an airbrush, how to clean and keep an airbrush, etc. on top of all that I need to learn re: painting. As the "learning of airbrush" obviously involves yet more financial outlay, well, it just makes it easier for me to stay away.

 

[gohkm]

The airbrush is another tool, and as with all tools, requires time and dedication to learn its proper use. It might be something you wish to pick up later on, or not - there's lots of painters out there, professional ones, who are perfectly happy without an airbrush.

If cost is a factor, perhaps one way to do things would be to purchase metal miniatures, instead. These are easily recyclable - paint a mini, dunk it in concentrated Simple Green or industrial acetone and give it a good scrub, and paint all over again. It's a great way to learn a specific technique.

One can do the same with plastic miniatures, too. But stripping metal is, IMHO, much easier and less fussy.

 

[Jbickley00]

There is a reason to use a base coat. Especially if you layer. The base coat layer will show through and subtly tint the glazed layers, so th end product will have a different look. In oil paintng this is accomplishe through an underpaiting. This is a gross oversimplification, but there are reason to base coat, it's not simply an exercise in silliness.

 

[GamerDad]

The airbrush is another tool, and as with all tools, requires time and dedication to learn its proper use. It might be something you wish to pick up later on, or not - there's lots of painters out there, professional ones, who are perfectly happy without an airbrush.

Granted, but even with an airbrush, everyone still needs to grab a brush at some point, yes? I am not willing to learn this while my skills and knowledge on using a basic brush is still lacking.

There is a reason to use a base coat. Especially if you layer. The base coat layer will show through and subtly tint the glazed layers, so th end product will have a different look. In oil paintng this is accomplishe through an underpaiting. This is a gross oversimplification, but there are reason to base coat, it's not simply an exercise in silliness.

I guess at this point, what I am doing is replacing the basecoat from the recommended XV-88 (dark brown) color and going straight for the Tau Light Ochre (brighter brown). When I said "basecoat" in the title, I meant Base or Foundation paints, which I was told was "essential" to put on before putting on the Layer or Color paints. Putting on a dark-color base made it impossible for me to achieve the bright colors I want -- I used to base Mechrite Red then layer on Blood Red but I couldn't get it "bright" enough in red. For my Tau, I've been using XV-88 as base then Tau Light Ochre as layer, but I couldn't get it "bright" enough, not unless I use two coats of straight-from-the-pot paint.

Now, my "basecoat" is my Tau Light Ochre and I am getting the tint I want after 3-4 layers of thinned-down paint. I guess I still do basecoat, technically-speaking.

So I guess the exercise in silliness was following the GW recommendations.

 

[TrystanGST]

There is a reason to use a base coat. Especially if you layer. The base coat layer will show through and subtly tint the glazed layers, so th end product will have a different look. In oil paintng this is accomplishe through an underpaiting. This is a gross oversimplification, but there are reason to base coat, it's not simply an exercise in silliness.

This is generally true, but not really applicable to the GW paint range. At least not as they intend them to be used. They want you to slather the whole mini in Basecoat, Add a Layer or two, and then edge Highlight. There's no dilution, no glazing, no layering. Just a bunch of broad brush strokes.

 

[GamerDad]

Well, even with my "refined" approach, it does not work. By "does not work," it doesn't mean the technique is bad, but rather "does not give the expected results."

I wasn't worried about covering the whole thing with XV-88 as I knew Chaos Black covered very well even with dilution. However, on the parts that I did paint, it did not turn out as bright as I hoped.

 

[Demihuman]

Have you tried color primers? Rustoleum primer in a spray can? You can usually find a really nice rust red and black at any hardware stores I have also seen blue and brown. Then you could hit your model with a light coat of actual color for a quick zenithal highlight. Then flat pruity seal of your choice and you have a great start for a table top piece. Just make sure you give it a good purity seal or the primer will rub off on your fingers after a short while.

Then after you sell those on e-bay you can buy yourself an airbrush which is whole 'nother giant set of skills to learn