Rating Children\'s Minis

[paintwidow]

Okay, I saw this mini and realized a debate was taking place in the comments, so, I thought, let\'s see what happens in the forums.

Please look at the following:
http://www.coolminiornot.com/?id=2366
Thanks for the permission to use your pic, Idahoan!

Now, (and keep in mind, I am a mom), this is obviously not table top quality. I think that posting a mini your kid painted is a delightful idea, and probably exciting for the child as well. But, is it fair to vote this as high as some of the comments are voting it? Personally, I gave it a 3, and I felt this was generous. Granted, it is a GREAT paint job on this particularly little mini for a 5 year old, but I felt I had to be fair to all the 20+ year-olds that I have given 4\'s and 5\'s to.

Well, what do you think? Should a score be given based on someone\'s age, or the overall quality of their work, or a little of both?

 

[Nelson]

I\'m pretty sure this was debated before, but I was a lurker then (still am, in many respects), so I\'ll chip in my two cents. IMO,what the hell, give the little tyke an 8! I think as long as people mention that their five year old painted it, It\'s okay to vote kinda skewed. Sure, It\'s hard to give a vote of 3 to a mini of the same quality that gets 8 when painted by a kid, but I think most people should understand the reasoning. I don\'t however, think a 13 year old should get a better vote than a 30 year old for the same mini. There\'s a point where I would stop voting easily, for fun, and that\'s where the child/teen/adult/old fart can post their pictures on their own

 

[U4-Welcome]

Usually, when people start posting \"complementary factors\" like being 5 years old, being mentally challenged, suffering from Parkinson\'s syndrome, having no arms and painting the mini by blowing paint through the nose, and such, I\'ll simply refrain from voting. I can\'t vote fairly when it comes to balancing what the paintjob deserves and what the painter deserves.

 

[Dragonsreach]

If there\'s a \'skew\' here I\'m not worrying about it as for a 5 year old that\'s good work.
IDAHOAN is proud of her/his childs achiebvement and so they should be vote with that in mind.

 

[frenchkid]

well I think that people should not be posting on this to see what score they\'re going to get on there mini, but to see what people think about it. So that would mean that if you find that mini very good for a five years old then just give it an 8. Now I know this might also be frustrating to somone who has a 4 to see that this mini that is not that well painted is getting a higher score then him, but I think you should be able to accepte the fact that little children get a \"compassion bonus\". After all your not asking people in the street to look at you and say \" Oh my god he\'s so cut, what a nice little boy\" .
But what I would be more worried about is that giving good grades to small children might stop them from trying to improve.

 

[Sturmhalo]

I\'ll allow myself to give an extra point for effort in some cases, but I\'m still not going to start handing out high scores for something just coz it was done by little kid. I gave this piece a 2 which I felt to be an honest score. I did however mention that for such a young painter it was relatively good. Encouragement is one thing, but lying doesn\'t help anyone.

 

[frenchkid]

Depends what you\'re giving a score. If it\'s the painting skills of the painter then you wouldn\'t be lying if you gave it a good score. But if you scoring the actuall paintjob of the mini then it would seem normal to give it a low score.

 

[barkel]

Firstly, I don\'t think this piece is relatively good for a 5 year old. I think it is fantastic for a 5 year old. I think we take for granted the dexterous feet that painting this little bastards really is.

Secondly, I think our job when we vote is to encourage the painter to become better. We should try to keep this in mind with every comment/vote we make.

For an adult giving points for inability or incapacity is not really excusable. If the poster says, \"this is my first mini.\" I\'ll give comments that are aimed at improving where I think he is lacking. But I am always kind (I hope) and my goal is to encourage.

For a child encouragement is completely different. Kids aren\'t stupid, but they don\'t reason like adults. They know that 10 is best and that 5 is tabletop and that 3 means you really aren\'t good yet. HOWEVER, a child of the age of 5 cannot really comprehend YET. They only know the now and when you tell them their mini is a 3 they will interpret that as being not good. This is very UNlikely to drive them to improve and very likely to cause them even more frustration and to quit.

If you want more people in this hobby--and you do, more people=more demand, more demand=more supply at cheeper rates-- then we need to encourage them. So if someone asks us to take their age into consideration then do.

And by the way, no one is going to look at your mini that\'s a 6 (or in my case a 5) and think that it is really the same quality as this childs 5. We all know the difference and we all know that yours is better.

barkel

 

[finn17]

This is another one of those circular posts

Lets just accept that, as this is such a subjective question, no one is ever likely to agree on this subject? Or the extremes of opinion are unlikely to agree shall we say.

The beauty is, because we are all such a mixed bag here, and there are a sufficient quantity of us, at the end of the day it is not going to matter a jot.

Lets say the mini is a \'5\', then for every person who posts a \'2\' there will be another who will post an \'8\'. The extremes will tend to cancel one another out.

I notice it is currently rating at \'5\' with over 400 votes, which IMO is appropriate. It suggests that a modicum of allowance is being made for the age of the painter without going overboard.

It is definitely not a \'1-2\' or a \'9-10\' so it would seem that there is wisdom in numbers, ie the 400 members who have taken the time to vote.

 

[wightzombie]

sad the kid paints NEARLY as good as some here. anywho since it was a kid i really didnt take it seriously at all and gave em a 10 to encourage the little one. sure the job actually blows but id never tell that to a trying kid. like telling them thier reading sucks, who cares, theyll get older and better and thats when you hint them in on the quality of thier work. the work was pure gold for that kid.

if they drew me a picture in real life i wouldnt mark it with a big red F then say \"well, i give you a A for effort\". little to console them when they know the F stands for failure. its like saying one thing and doing another. i always hated that as a kid, well you sucked, you failed, you bombed out, you didnt make the grade, but heres a smile and a pat on the back. theres a time in which they will be held to standards by everyone and everything so the least i can do is dish out a little fantasy before they forget what it is and end up wearing all black every day.

i think i used to be a \"iron\" voter who strictly judged by competition standards. nowdays i find the rigidness just not as fun to go by and that view made it harder for me to see the fun in poorly rated minis thus i couldnt leave nice comments on \"crap\", just constructive comments.

going through stages in art my whole life, everyone adapted as i grew. the better i did the more honest people were with me with my work and the more accountable i became. i liked that because it let me grow and adapt mentally and if any kid shows potential then it becomes quite a matter to nurture them right.

the whole system is fine of voting and what not but without consistent judging ala any sort of panel of judges etc it shoots the whole credibility of standards out the window so im just going to have fun and say what i feel instead of pounding a standard.

 

[paintwidow]

Originally posted by Nelson
I\'m pretty sure this was debated before, but I was a lurker then (still am, in many respects), so I\'ll chip in my two cents.

Sorry if this is a repeat topic, but I looked around for something similar and couldn\'t find it...must\'ve been a while ago.

Originally posted by finn17
Lets just accept that, as this is such a subjective question, no one is ever likely to agree on this subject? Or the extremes of opinion are unlikely to agree shall we say.

Yeah, but sometimes it\'s nice to have a good ole difference of opinion. Even though I added a point or two to my rating of this pic and others like it based on the age of the painter (this pic was just an example, keep in mind), I was interested in hearing the viewpoints of the ones who gave it 8\'s and 9\'s.

And I do realize how amazing this mini is painted for a 5 year old. I\'ve seen this mini, about the size of a nickel, and the little tyke did an excellent job. Hope my daughter is interested and can do as well in a few years.

Thanks to everyone who has responded thus far.

 

[Tuubje]

Originally posted by barkel
Firstly, I don\'t think this piece is relatively good for a 5 year old. I think it is fantastic for a 5 year old. I think we take for granted the dexterous feet that painting this little bastards really is.

Secondly, I think our job when we vote is to encourage the painter to become better. We should try to keep this in mind with every comment/vote we make.

For an adult giving points for inability or incapacity is not really excusable. If the poster says, \"this is my first mini.\" I\'ll give comments that are aimed at improving where I think he is lacking. But I am always kind (I hope) and my goal is to encourage.

For a child encouragement is completely different. Kids aren\'t stupid, but they don\'t reason like adults. They know that 10 is best and that 5 is tabletop and that 3 means you really aren\'t good yet. HOWEVER, a child of the age of 5 cannot really comprehend YET. They only know the now and when you tell them their mini is a 3 they will interpret that as being not good. This is very UNlikely to drive them to improve and very likely to cause them even more frustration and to quit.

If you want more people in this hobby--and you do, more people=more demand, more demand=more supply at cheeper rates-- then we need to encourage them. So if someone asks us to take their age into consideration then do.

And by the way, no one is going to look at your mini that\'s a 6 (or in my case a 5) and think that it is really the same quality as this childs 5. We all know the difference and we all know that yours is better.

barkel

Eveerything Barkel said I agree with, so no need to type it twice

 

[supervike]

good thread...

As long as the kids are being exploited to \'help me finish this damn army\" I think it is cool for parents to \'show off\' their kids handiwork.

And, as the voting goes, I firmly sit right on the fence.

I like the argument of scoring higher just to encourage them, but I also agree with the more \'realistic\' votes to challenge them. So either way the voting is moot.

My only point would be....

A five year old could care less of what the votes would be. They would only care that they are spending quality time with mom/dad/sibling and that their \'pretty picture\' is on the computer.

As the wise Finn said, the extreme votes will cancel each other out, so the \'skewing\' is minor (pun intended) at best.

 

[johnboyjjb]

I think it would get a five. It is better than some adults. I personally think that until the kid hits 10-13 and have picked up some dexterity it should be skewed. This is probably her best and to tell a kid of 5 that the best they can do doesn\'t deserve a place on the tabletop I\'ve been that kid too many times and wouldn\'t encourage it. Yeah, I\'d skew my vote to tabletop. Giving extras might be pushing it. And I agree, nobody is likely to change the opinion they hold over this topic.

 

[barkel]

sorry, one more thing...or two.

First, I have to diagree that a kid won\'t care what their vote is. They MIGHT not care, but then again, they might.

Secondly, I think it is folly to vote with averages in mind. Sure, 400 people have voted and the mini will likely stay at 5 from here to eternity. No big deal. And sure, ultimately every mini will have 400+ votes and they will get a good idea of the truth of their mini. But those 400 votes were, at some point, one person making a conscious effort to vote. We are not discussing the end result. We are discussing how an individual should address a very specific situation. Forget about the fact that the general consesus is a 5, I think it\'s an 8 or a 9 because a 5 year old did it.

But it brings up a very important notion, and I\'m sure I\'m not the first to mention it. GW does a Youngbloods competition. Anyone under 11 or something is allowed to compete with his own age group. Perhaps CMON should add a space in it\'s display catagory: Fantasy, SciFi, Historical, Misc, Terrain and JUNIORS.

But I\'m sure even if they did that people would argue that it\'s important to hurt kids\' feeling to get them to improve.

barkel

 

[paintwidow]

Originally posted by supervike
And, as the voting goes, I firmly sit right on the fence.

Doesn\'t that hurt your....nevermind....lollol

Also, I\'m not above...well, I hate to put it this way and say lying, but...\"encouraging\" my friends by telling them their paint job looks better than it does. I\'ve done this often just so they\'ll keep painting and improve. Now, this isn\'t the same as truly encouraging a child, but there are some similarities. I guess on CMON, with the anonymity and all, it\'s easier for me to give a more honest score, even to a little kid. Anyway, who can truly begrudge a good score to a 5-year-old? Not me:innocent:

And the separate category IS a good idea barkel. Glad someone brought it up.

 

[supervike]

I disagree with your disagreeing.....

@ Barkel

Good point, maybe I shouldn\'t say categorically that a 5 year old would care about their vote. I am just going on my experience with kids that age, and with my own children.

I was just trying to emphasize that it is NOT the vote that the kid would care about as much as it was spending time with their folks.

Now I am done disagreeing with you, I will get on to the agreeing part...

The Juniors idea is a very cool idea.

 

[finn17]

At the risk of being a boring old fart....

Originally posted by supervike
The Juniors idea is a very cool idea.

I have only voted on over 4000 images on this site and I don\'t think I have come across more than 4 or 5 minis, possibly less, that were overtly \'childrens\'. I don\'t suspect therefore that CA is likely to want to spent his valuable time setting up a special section for such a small number.

I think this is especially so as it will inevitably generate a \'What is a junior debate\'. Under 8?...10? 11?

Also, historical, fantasy, SF etc are categories which are self-evident. There is always going to be someone who will upset the applecart by posting in the wrong section just for the hell of it.

Why stick at age? Why not have beginner, intermediate and advanced categories?

How about a disabled section. I am aware of a couple of people on this site who have disabilities. Should their work be considered differently?

At the end of the day a proud parent has submitted a picture by his daughter, and we should all be happy about all the good things that represents instead of getting het up about those that gave \'subjectively\' low scores and those who gave \'subjectively\' high scores.

By the way, I happen to think red is a much better colour than blue which is why I always paint my Blood Angels this delightful shadelol

 

[dauber22]

Originally posted by finn17
Why stick at age? Why not have beginner, intermediate and advanced categories?

I\'m holding out for the \"Inept\" category

 

[barkel]

perhaps

Perhaps there are too few a number of juniors to get it\'s own catagory, but the Manufacturer NEMO has it\'s own section and there\'s only one pic in it. I don\'t think it would take long to add Juniors to the list. It may never have more than 10 or 15 pics in it, but it would be there for the kids who needed it. The poster would be responsible for putting it there, not the Administrator. And if a kid wanted to post with the adults then he does so at his own risk.

On the topic of beginner/advanced/disabled, et cetera. This is a different thing entirely. Children simply do not reason the way adults do. You can tell a beginner adult or a disabled adult that they really need to work hard on the highlighting because you just can\'t see the detail. If the comment is reasonable the reasonable adult will take it reasonably. If you say the same thing to a child it has a different result. If there were a JUNIORS section it could show clearly at the top of the screen and posters and commentors would know to wear their kid gloves.

barkel

ps. to Supervike: I think you are probably right that most children would not care about their score. Seeing the pic on the computer and playing with mom and dad would be the highlight. Still, when it comes time to vote I think we should assume that anyone who posts here does care.