Paint thinners, surface tension breakers, glazers etc...

[bsop]

So I've been painting for years now off and on, pretty experienced etc... In the past i have merely used water to thin my paints for a glaze or a feather- on occasion I will add a small amount of dish-soap to break the tension, and make a more effective glaze.

So, Through the wonderful world of Ebay I ordered some new vallejo game colors- 10 in all. This will be my first experience with vallejo, I've used nothing but GW in the past, so I figured its time to try something new. My main motivation was to find alternatives to the putridly thin and horrifically blotchy "Golden Yellow" GW paint. I'm in the midst of painting an Ogre army with a yellow scheme- needless to say its proved difficult to get an effective tone without painting 15 thin layers. That however, is not the main focus of my thread.

Ive heard good things about paint thinners etc which many of you use to thin the paints instead of water. I ordered the two that vallejo produces, their thinner and Glaze medium. I'm particularly excited for the glaze medium; from what I understand its also a retardant so it should make my whole arsenal of blending techniques more effective as it slows the dry time.

Essentially I'm looking for some opinions, optimistically a general consensus on how I should expect these new mediums to react to my paints, any problems I may see etc. Also, if there's is a better alternative than Vallejos version of said mediums, save me from ignorance!

 

[Wyrmypops]

Seeking alternatives to GW paints, Vallejo's Game Colour range ain't a big leap though, it's about the closest you can get to it without seeing a Citadel logo. I'm happy to recommend P3 (am liking the white paints) and Vallejo's Model Colour. The latter especially, very fine stuff, notably in the metallics.

I was in a similar boat when I joined this place, it's amazing to me that even after gaining levels of profiency there's all these nifty little things to learn about. I've been thinking of starting a thanks of appreciation thread for all the heads up on products. It's been folk hereabouts that have turned me onto the various products available for this and that. Thinner-wise, I've made use of Liquitex Flow-Aid and Retarder, I like the stuff. They require dilution, and as I'm in a hard-water area (another tip from someone here) I picked up some Distilled Water from E-bay. Mixed it all up together, in the correct amounts, it's handy to have to hand in an eye-dropper bottle so I can simply add a drop to whatever I'm working with.

That alone is enough for painting small areas, though for parts where a fair bit of paint, or various tones of that paint are gonna be employed it's a good idea to use a "wet palette". I made a few from appropriately shaped blister packs and keep a wad of slips of the greased paper. It's one of the biggest "blimey, why'd I never try these before?" things I've taken to, the paint stays usable for ages. One wet palette still had usable paint on it even after I'd slept.

 

[bsop]

+1 on the wet palette, now that I've been using one, its hard to fathom how I got on without it previously, not to mention the amount of paint that was dried and wasted. I have heard about the distilled water trick, read about that one in the CMON painting guide- which is a great resource from my favorite mini gallery, newbie artists or paint encrusted veterans alike can benefit. (I'm not even affiliated with the site and im still shamelessly plugging)

As far as my Vallejo paints: yeah, i know they are extremely similar, but i did grab 3 model colors to go with it. Canvas and two wood tones... maybe one was a leather. Regardless, I went to game color to finish up existing projects that will require similar color vibrancy, grabbed some model colors to see how their browns work out- clothing i can handle being bright... woods and leather I prefer a much more organic, realistic feel. I'll have to check out the Liquitex flow aid and retarder as well as the P3 line. Ive heard good things about the reaper master series as well, but we shall see. Based on what other people have said about Vallejos model color pigment concentration, I just may have to expand my collection.

 

[Wicksy]

I've recently experimented with using surfactants to thin my paints and washes. I dont much like the term "surface tension breaker". You dont break surface tension, you lower it. By how much depends on the surfactant concentration. The right level is pretty crucial so that the layer spreads across the surface you're painting onto.

Having blended some highlights onto a rhino, i needed a wash to bring them together. However i'd had poor results with just the wash alone. Too thick and it pool, even when diluted. However thinning the wash with tap water with a small amount of washing up liquid seemed to work. Some people use something called Future Floor polish. I read however, that using it can give you problems. I believe it was an article by a Polish painter, Anya, from Chest of Colours. It tended to cause the layer below to slough away when applying the next blend. Likely reasons include additives that interfer with the adhesion of the binder material or ability of the binder to form a continuous layer once its dried. I've thought about this a fair bit. I'm a Surface Chemist by profession so i love this stuff The washing up liquid i used was a cheap brand with as little additives as possible. The cheaper the better. I used about 1 drop in about 50mls of water. Enough so that bubbles form on the surface if you stir it but not quite enough for them to be stable for too long. This may vary depending on hard or soft tap water used. The result was a wash that would not pool and i was able to paint a thin, continuous layer without any issues. My mate and i have used it on blends aswell, though i'n not really skilled enough to comment on whether it is a must use or not. i will continue to experiment though and if i can, i'll use pure surfactants to avoid any issues with contaminating the paints.

Sorry if this seems like rambling rubbish but it to me seems like something worth looking at

 

[madnos]

I have been using flowaid when doing blends and some washes. This has helped me get a nice blend and helps slow the drying of paint on the pallet. Glazes can also help with the blend but I try to use one drop of flowaid in the glaze also. This just helps the glaze flow a little easier. If one drop is too much, just keep a drop on the pallet and moisten the brush prior to going into glaze/wash/paint and it will still give a neat effect. Distilled water is also key so if you don't have any pick up a gallon and keep a bottle on your paint table. It will definately come in handy.

 

[Einion]

I've recently experimented with using surfactants to thin my paints and washes. I dont much like the term "surface tension breaker". You dont break surface tension, you lower it.

Wellll, 'break' doesn't necessarily imply that it goes to zero (and the term is used commercially/industrially).

Some people use something called Future Floor polish. I read however, that using it can give you problems. I believe it was an article by a Polish painter, Anya, from Chest of Colours. It tended to cause the layer below to slough away when applying the next blend. Likely reasons include additives that interfer with the adhesion of the binder material or ability of the binder to form a continuous layer once its dried.

I'm surprised by this, since Future adds binder so the wash is definitely more adhesive (and cohesive) than it would be using water along. But liquid Future is a solvent for dried Future, which may have a bearing.

I've thought about this a fair bit. I'm a Surface Chemist by profession so i love this stuff The washing up liquid i used was a cheap brand with as little additives as possible. The cheaper the better. I used about 1 drop in about 50mls of water. Enough so that bubbles form on the surface if you stir it but not quite enough for them to be stable for too long. This may vary depending on hard or soft tap water used.

That's seems a good way to judge the amount, by effect :good:

Anyone looking to try this, be cautious because many brands use foam-producing agents (one of the additives Wicksy speaks of).

Einion

 

[sivousplay]

I use Vallejo Model Colour and Vallejo Game Colour paints pretty exclusively and have always used a dropper bottle filled w/ water and Future mixed at a 1:3 - 1:4 ratio as my mixture for diluting paints. I have always found it to work nicely w/ very thin paint and also like the slight sheen that you get from the future.

jim

 

[Yves]

Hey there bsop, though it might be a bit off-topic as I'm not talking about media, thinners, etc.: You said you were looking for something to replace that crappy GW yellow.
I've found that a Vallejo Model Color basecoat of "yellow ocre" that is highlighted up to white has a nice coverage and when glazed with "sunburst yellow" produces a nice, rich yellow. Wether you just layer ocre to white or really blend it is up to how much time you want to spend. I got all my Bretonnian peasent's painted that way and I'm quite pleased, as it doesn't look as "comic-ish".

Cheers

 

[bsop]

I've found that a Vallejo Model Color basecoat of "yellow ocre" that is highlighted up to white has a nice coverage and when glazed with "sunburst yellow" produces a nice, rich yellow. I got all my Bretonnian peasent's painted that way and I'm quite pleased, as it doesn't look as "comic-ish".
Cheers

Awesome, thanks for the tip; I'll be picking up some of that very soon. Do you happen to have pictures of your peasants on hand? Id love to see how they turned out.

I spent over an hour today running over my yellow options sans the thinner and glaze medium o ordered. Dont think they will help very much as the trouble im having is with their pigment concentration (or lack thereof). Eliminating brushstrokes in yellow is about a hair short of insanity. I was using Iyradian Darksun, Sunburst, Golden, and Yellow ink from GW, Sunlight from Reaper pro. All are really too translucent to be very effective on the large surface Area of the ogres. I think I will have to use the darksun as the base, ink it with a yellow/chestnut blend, and then highlight up from there with a mix of golden, darksun, and white. This is really my first venture into the wonderful world of yellow paint- with my bretonnians I only used in on the heraldry so large areas were strictly avoided.

 

[Wyrmypops]

I've enjoyed base coats of Fiery Orange, blended to white, finished with an application of yellow ink. It's the technique I love, the ease of smoothly blending from just one colour to another, without all the irksome going through several paints which in the yellow ranges are often too weak for comfort. Once the ink goes on , all that shading remaining visible beneath the tinted vibrant yellow, I can imagine it striking a pose and going "Ta Da!".
The colour produced is rather juicy and lush, but reckon I've slipped into a rut with it, I should start dancing around with alternative colours for variety - a basecoat of one of the various browns to white, or mixing any of the myriad brown inks in with the yellow.

 

[bsop]

Yeah, ive done that technique for yellow for a friend of mine and a skink hero, very very vibrant, but i think we may have something if i were to blend it with another wash or a touch of brown. Its just so frustrating now to being able to find satisfaction with this one color; I know in the end getting it accomplished will be worth the effort. I hope so at least.

 

[Wicksy]

I have been using flowaid when doing blends and some washes. This has helped me get a nice blend and helps slow the drying of paint on the pallet. Glazes can also help with the blend but I try to use one drop of flowaid in the glaze also. This just helps the glaze flow a little easier. If one drop is too much, just keep a drop on the pallet and moisten the brush prior to going into glaze/wash/paint and it will still give a neat effect. Distilled water is also key so if you don't have any pick up a gallon and keep a bottle on your paint table. It will definately come in handy.

Never seen the need for distilled water......i live in a pretty hard water area and when i apply myself i can get smooth enough blends. It certainly won hurt though.

 

[Wicksy]

I'm surprised by this, since Future adds binder so the wash is definitely more adhesive (and cohesive) than it would be using water along. But liquid Future is a solvent for dried Future, which may have a bearing.

We dont have that stuff in the UK.....Does it use an acrylic binder then? If it does then you're idea about it being a solvent for dried polish might be right as it might effect the paint binder aswell.

 

[Yves]

Sorry bsop, just moved to a new apartment and I didn't have any time to unpack my camera yet. I might get to it this week , tho. If you're interested I could send a picture your way as soon as I got it done.
Happy to help.

 

[Einion]

We dont have that stuff in the UK.....

Future = Klear (although you might still see this on shelves it's now called Pledge Multi-Surface Wax).

It's an acrylic floor finish - no wax, despite the name - and can be used as the 'magic' ingredient in magic wash, as a pre-coating for decals, for increasing the transparency of clear styrene, to bind pigment/pastel dusts, in addition to water for airbrushing, plus of course for gloss-coating (quite good for sweat streaks).

Einion

 

[GOwenC]

I do things somewhat differently Than most I've seen in that I use artists acrylics in primary colors and brown (I've found it very difficult to mix a good brown) and paint off of a palette. Be that as it may, any good artists acrylic line has "acrylic mediums" that usually include matte, satin, and gloss varnishes, drying retarder, transparent extender, and airbrush mediums. Experimenting with different combinations of paint, retarder, and transparent extender and/or airbrush medium can give you pretty complete control of thinning and surface tension. If the paint set you are using is acrylic (which if I'm not mistaken GW and Vallejos are?) then any artists quality acrylic mediums should work with them.

 

[Einion]

Many or most hobby colours will actually be vinyl paints despite how they're usually named (derived from "cell vinyl paint" used in the animation industry) but the chemistry is very similar to true acrylics and acrylic/vinyl blends so generally speaking paints and mediums are fully intermixable.

...

I advise keeping things simple when painting - thin with water*, then if that doesn't do what you want think about a medium of some kind or other additive. Many mediums and additives are definitely worth experimenting with to see what works for you, but especially in soft-water areas you might find that you only need water at the end of the day.

*Plus a little dishwashing liquid in the mix water, nearly always have some of that; unless the increased tendency to foam might be a problem in which case I use neat tap water.

Einion

 

[Metal Fingers]

Golden Acrylic's Satin Glazing medium works very well for glazing colors while still maintaining a comfortable amount of color and pigment without getting grainy.