New brushes = love!

-Ice

New member
I had a half-day shift yesterday and dropped in my local GW to get a few pots of washes and paint. Finished my errands early so I figured I might as well take another look at my local HobbiCraft store. 15 minutes of browsing the brushes aisle and I was ready to leave when this employee walked behind me so I asked him if they stocked any Series 7s. Two shelves worth of brushes, maybe 6 "boxes" deep of different brushes, and I was pointed to a column of brushes, 3 "boxes" deep that containted the brushes I was looking for.

While other brush ranges have so much space, the Series 7s actually occupied about 1% of all that. I would've missed them if I hadn't asked. So, I picked a 000, 0, and a 1 and had a look at my first "proper" brushes. Then I looked at the price. :shock:

Boy, were they expensive!

At this point, I had ordered a 3/0, 0, and a 1 of Raphael brushes from Jackson's Art Supplies so I was low on cash, but with the Raphaels coming, I wanted some Series 7s to compare with. I ditched the 1 and went home with a 0 and a 000. I had asked the store employee if I could return the brushes if I didn't like the point and he said as long as the brushes were not used with paint, I could, so I tried the brushes with my clean water first.

And I automatically saw why these brushes were superior. The bristles form into a point naturally (I have to coax my GW basecoat brush sometimes), have a firm "feel" to them (doesn't "flex" or bend so much), and are very good at holding paint. Often times, as I wipe it lightly across the paper towel I use to suck off excess paint, I am surprised at how much runs off from the brush and I am even more surprised at how much area the remaining paint in the brush can still cover! The more I painted (I worked on the eyes, the skulls and aquila, and the soft armor areas of a space marine), the more I also noticed how "predictable" the brushes were. A small flick of the fingers always produced the same results, the brush's firmness gave me confidence to gently touch and paint the edges of the aquila; the overall experience just provided leaps and bounds of increase in my painting confidence.

At first, I tried the 000 brush to paint the green onto the eyes.... for some reason the 000 did not hold as much paint, or the paint would not flow too well. I am not sure if this is a brush characteristic or due to my paint --- I don't dilute this green paint more than what a moist brush can hold since wet paint "flows" too much and I want more control of the eyes... however, pure paint sometimes doesn't want to flow off from the brush! So I resorted to using the 0 brush and it was even better than my GW brush in terms of control and flex. My space marine eyes are not perfect, but now I know that is due to my technique (brush stroke and how I hold the mini) rather than a fault of the equipment.

The funny thing now is that I'm using the 000 brush for Boltgun Metal application. I have to rinse off the paint from the brush every minute or so as the dried paint makes the brush stiff but after a nice clean, a bit of water (what the brush can hold), and a nice swirl in my Boltgun Metal paint blob, I can paint the fine bolter details with confidence again. The paint does not stick too much nor does it flow too well which is perfect; this makes me wonder what I did wrong with the eyes application I did earlier.

Anyway, my Raphael brushes came in this morning. And have so far been unused. I'll give them a try later when I paint my Assault Marines, but to be honest, they're looking like "extra" brushes for now.

I think I spent ~£17 for these two brushes. The Jackson's Art Supplies catalog says I can get them for ~£10. To all who says these brushes are expensive, I say bullshit. They are worth every penny and then some more. If I've had these brushes before, I would've saved myself a lot of grief. I will gladly pick up some more of these brushes, maybe have 2 or 3 of the size 0 brushes and maybe have each brush dedicated to a specific color/color range in my paint scheme, though I have yet to feel the need for that. So far, my size 0 has gone and applied reds, oranges, grays, blacks, and greens with satisfying precision and no evidence of "contamination" from previous colors. So maybe I'll just have a few more brushes lying around "just in case" or maybe for metallic paint duty.

I love these brushes. I can't wait to try the Raphaels and compare but at this point, I totally do not feel the need and I am more than ecstatic with my W&N Series 7s.

However, being new to this hobby, I'll close this post with a query: What other brushes do you use and what do you use them for?

Like I said, the 0 brush seems versatile enough for all but the finest application requriements which the 000 can cover, and my GW basecoat brush has now been delegated to paint-mixing and basecoat/wash applications so I am wondering what other brushes I might need for other applications.

Now all I have to make up my mind with is the proper "paint recipe" for my Blood Angels! :clap:
 

gohkm

New member
The W&Ns are lovely, but you need to watch out for naff batches - occasionally, the quality is really, really poor, and the brushes provide only sub-par performance. But for the most part, I used almost exclusively W&Ns. Get yourself some brush soap as well, and use that to clean and condition your brushes after each painting session - it extends the life of the brush. I'm still using my #1 from 2 years back, and it doesn't seem to be falling apart at all.

I would also recommend getting a #1 or #2 when you get around to bigger models, like Dreadnaughts.
 

In Chigh P.I.

New member
Yep, ive mentioned in a few other threads that Hobbycraft is worth a check for brushes every now & again. I got my own S7,s there too (but yes, they are a bit expensive)
 

-Ice

New member
I was hoping to get some of that cleaner that I've seen on videos, but HobbiCraft didn't have them. I'll be sure to get them with my next batch of brushes. Anything else? :D
 

Dragonsreach

Super Moderator
Finished my errands early so I figured I might as well take another look at my local HobbiCraft store. So, I picked a 000, 0, and a 1 and had a look at my first "proper" brushes. Then I looked at the price. :shock:
Boy, were they expensive!
Regretfully Hobbicraft are expensive for some things, brushes being the worst.

At first, I tried the 000 brush to paint the green onto the eyes.... for some reason the 000 did not hold as much paint, or the paint would not flow too well.
I am not sure if this is a brush characteristic or due to my paint.
In some respects both. The 000 brushes are designed specfically for Water Colours, not the Acrylics we use. Drying times (water/medium evaporation rates) are so very different that what is achivable in watercolours isn't as easily done with Acrylics.
I find that 000 are superb for quick touch ultra highlights like spot flares on gemstones, and occasionally the initial lines for freehand, but due to the need for extreme dilution needed 000's aren't a mainstay brush for me, more like a 'reach for it WHEN needed'.

So I resorted to using the 0 brush and it was even better than my GW brush in terms of control and flex. My space marine eyes are not perfect, but now I know that is due to my technique (brush stroke and how I hold the mini) rather than a fault of the equipment.

The funny thing now is that I'm using the 000 brush for Boltgun Metal application. I have to rinse off the paint from the brush every minute or so as the dried paint makes the brush stiff but after a nice clean, a bit of water (what the brush can hold), and a nice swirl in my Boltgun Metal paint blob, I can paint the fine bolter details with confidence again. The paint does not stick too much nor does it flow too well which is perfect; this makes me wonder what I did wrong with the eyes application I did earlier.
This sounds /reads like an issue with dilution control, something that you'll have to find your own balance with when painting. However Boltgun Metal isn't the best of paints for dilution, personally I rarely use it now, due to its coarse metal granuals.
I'm also reading from your postings that you could do with sitting alongside a more experienced painter for half an hour or so to get some help in finding the best way for you to paint. Whereabouts in the UK are you? There may be some painters locally from these forums who might be willing to spend some time giving you a few pointers.

I think I spent ~£17 for these two brushes.
OK that was pricey.
The Jackson's Art Supplies catalog says I can get them for ~£10.
About what I'd expect to pay.

I will gladly pick up some more of these brushes, maybe have 2 or 3 of the size 0 brushes and maybe have each brush dedicated to a specific color/color range in my paint scheme
Unneccessary. Simple cleaning techniques and maintainance between colours is enough.
However I do tend to use one for metallics and a separate one for plain colours in the same session.

However, being new to this hobby, I'll close this post with a query: What other brushes do you use and what do you use them for?
Size 1 and a size 2. Size 2 for large area coverage, maintaining smoother strokes. Size 1 for a workhorse brush (as well as the size 0).

Now all I have to make up my mind with is the proper "paint recipe" for my Blood Angels! :clap:
......................
 

-Ice

New member
Profile updated.

Any opinions on this brush cleaner? I've seen it recommended on some videos.

Thanks for the reply and the explanation Dragonsreach, really appreciate it. I think I'll stock more of the 0 brushes and keep my current 000s for "as needed" duties. Any opinion on the 00s? I do see the "use" of bigger brushes but I can live with my GW basecoat brush for now. I have no problems with "covering" miniatures with paint, it's the tricky, hard-to-reach, fine details that I'm worried about for now. That is my priority at the moment, but I will get another 1 and a 2 later on, thanks!

I do not dilute the metallic paints, as such. However, pure metallic paint is too... sticky for my tastes. What I've found is to wash the brush and then, instead of drying it on a paper towel or something, I just use it straight away on the metallic paint blob on my palette. The tiny bit of water on the brush is enough to "dilute" the paint that it carries so that it flows smoother without actually thinning out the metallic paint. In the end, I ease the application of the metallic paint without diluting it (too much).

I have updated my profile, but basically, I am in northeast UK (Cleveland, which I'm told is Geordie/Jeordie territory!). I would greatly appreciate some personal help from an experienced painter so if anyone is willing, please speak up! Does it have to be actually "sitting alongside" though? I mean, I do realize the benefits of actual face-to-face meetings and seeing a technique live, but in case there are no painters near me or real-life commitments prevent travel, how about Skype chats or something?
 

Dragonsreach

Super Moderator
Profile updated.

Any opinions on this brush cleaner? I've seen it recommended on some videos.

http://www.pegasusart.co.uk/922/Da-Vinci-Brush-Cleaning-Soap---85gm-Round-Metal-Tin.html=

This is the stuff I use after painting, being honest, when I remember. Normally I wash my brushes in clean water regularly during each session.

Thanks for the reply and the explanation Dragonsreach, really appreciate it. I think I'll stock more of the 0 brushes and keep my current 000s for "as needed" duties. Any opinion on the 00s?
Yes, I use the 00 as the second mainstay in my painting, it's great for so many tasks from fine detail work, ultra highlighting through to and including freehand.
I do see the "use" of bigger brushes but I can live with my GW basecoat brush for now. I have no problems with "covering" miniatures with paint, it's the tricky, hard-to-reach, fine details that I'm worried about for now. That is my priority at the moment, but I will get another 1 and a 2 later on, thanks!

I do not dilute the metallic paints, as such. However, pure metallic paint is too... sticky for my tastes. What I've found is to wash the brush and then, instead of drying it on a paper towel or something, I just use it straight away on the metallic paint blob on my palette. The tiny bit of water on the brush is enough to "dilute" the paint that it carries so that it flows smoother without actually thinning out the metallic paint. In the end, I ease the application of the metallic paint without diluting it (too much).
In that case I'm pretty sure that you need to reconsider your metallic paints.
<Pimp mode> A couple of years ago I invested in Vallejo Airbursh Metallics, and I can't recommend them highly enough. They make the particles in GW's boltgun metal look like sandpaper!
Doesn't matter about the Airbush part of the name, its the sheer finness (sp?) the metallic particles have which make the difference. Even drybrushing with them has a far differrent look than the 'traditional' mettalics.

I have updated my profile, but basically, I am in northeast UK (Cleveland, which I'm told is Geordie/Jeordie territory!).
NO! :stop:That's MONKEY HANGER COUNTRY. :smile-big:Geordies are from Newcastle and only Newcastle.
I would greatly appreciate some personal help from an experienced painter so if anyone is willing, please speak up! Does it have to be actually "sitting alongside" though?
Probably best, 10 minutes sitting side by side with someone is far better than any distance learning or online attempts.
I still have family in Newcastle and I'm due (overdue thanks to the snow this year) to visit in the New Year. A wander down to Stockton wouldn't be impossible to arrange.
I mean, I do realize the benefits of actual face-to-face meetings and seeing a technique live, but in case there are no painters near me or real-life commitments prevent travel, how about Skype chats or something?
...............
 

-Ice

New member
Haha... Monkey Hanger is Hartlepool, I'm told. Stockton is completely different.

I'll be getting some 00s (Raphael and W&N S7s) and brush soap on my next order.... which would be before new year.

I think it's very kind of you to offer your experties, Dragonsreach, I really appreciate it. Please check PMs.
 

Einion

New member
-Ice said:
And I automatically saw why these brushes were superior. The bristles form into a point naturally (I have to coax my GW basecoat brush sometimes), have a firm "feel" to them (doesn't "flex" or bend so much)...
That's spring, referred to in your earlier thread.

-Ice said:
...and are very good at holding paint.
Didn't we tell you?! Great innit?

-Ice said:
Often times, as I wipe it lightly across the paper towel I use to suck off excess paint, I am surprised at how much runs off from the brush and I am even more surprised at how much area the remaining paint in the brush can still cover!
Superior paint-holding and capillary action is one of the selling points of natural-hair brushes like this (better synthetics emulate this with a mix of bristle diameters incidentally).

-Ice said:
The funny thing now is that I'm using the 000 brush for Boltgun Metal application. I have to rinse off the paint from the brush every minute or so as the dried paint makes the brush stiff but after a nice clean, a bit of water (what the brush can hold), and a nice swirl in my Boltgun Metal paint blob, I can paint the fine bolter details with confidence again. The paint does not stick too much nor does it flow too well which is perfect; this makes me wonder what I did wrong with the eyes application I did earlier.
Different paints have different characteristics for a number of reasons. Metallics are well known for having that annoying tendency to dry on the tip of the brush (q.v. previous comments on recommendations for larger brushes).

-Ice said:
Anyway, my Raphael brushes came in this morning. And have so far been unused. I'll give them a try later when I paint my Assault Marines, but to be honest, they're looking like "extra" brushes for now.
If I were you I'd test them as soon as feasible; even if they're very similar in handling that you can use them interchangeably it's worth knowing this for yourself as just like with paint, which brush is best can be very much a matter of personal preference rather than a right/wrong thing.

Different brushes of similar quality but slightly different qualities can be better for certain purposes too - some watercolourists for example who mainly use a brand with a lot of spring will also use some Rosemary & Co. brushes for specific purposes more suited to their softer bristles.

-Ice said:
To all who says these brushes are expensive, I say bullshit. They are worth every penny and then some more.
Being worth every penny doesn't stop something from being expensive LOL

They are actually pricey enough that they can be seen to be expensive even without knowing the going rate... but once you know you can get the same performance, or better, for less money then you really know :glasses-cool:

-Ice said:
If I've had these brushes before, I would've saved myself a lot of grief. I will gladly pick up some more of these brushes, maybe have 2 or 3 of the size 0 brushes and maybe have each brush dedicated to a specific color/color range in my paint scheme, though I have yet to feel the need for that. So far, my size 0 has gone and applied reds, oranges, grays, blacks, and greens with satisfying precision and no evidence of "contamination" from previous colors.
With the possible exception of metallics proper rinsing = no need for a brush for lights/darks, much less for specific colours. So use that as a guide - if you can't go immediately from white to black, red to yellow, blue to yellow, without any colour contamination then the brush isn't being cleaned out well enough.

-Ice said:
Any opinions on this brush cleaner? I've seen it recommended on some videos.
FYI, you don't need to wash a brush frequently, particularly if you adopt a really thorough rinsing procedure; and washing can definitely be done too often which is a bad thing. Check previous threads for more specifics.


gohkm said:
The W&Ns are lovely, but you need to watch out for naff batches - occasionally, the quality is really, really poor, and the brushes provide only sub-par performance.
QFT

Einion
 

gohkm

New member
Argh! I can't believe it! A couple of days after I posted that my W&N #1 had lasted me a while, I just killed it yesterday! I got careless and wound up rushing a fig, using an almost drybrushing motion. For some reason, that was the straw that broke the camel's back - I shall miss you, my old faithful ...

Time to buy a couple of new brushes ...
 

Dragonsreach

Super Moderator
Argh! I can't believe it! A couple of days after I posted that my W&N #1 had lasted me a while, I just killed it yesterday! I got careless and wound up rushing a fig, using an almost drybrushing motion. For some reason, that was the straw that broke the camel's back - I shall miss you, my old faithful ...

Time to buy a couple of new brushes ...
Know the feeling. Just recently snapped the shaft of a W&N7 No1.
When I looked at it the wood was so old it was crumbled in places, must be somewhere between 9-10 years old as the gold writing had all gone but for the number.
 

-Ice

New member
Ah, yes, thanks for pointing that out, Einion! However, from what I understand it, "spring" refers to the ability for the brush to "spring back" into shape, yes? If so, I was referring to the firm "feel" of the brush, "stiffness" if you will. They've got good "spring" (goes back to the shape/tip/point) but nice firmness as well. Anyway, thanks for clarifying!

And yes, the brushes are awesome!

While I do agree with you about these brushes being pricey, my point is that they are worth the money. IMHO, if it is worth every penny, then it is a good purchase. If I feel that I have not made use of an item, then I feel it is expensive. A £20 brush that I can use for years and on lots of different applications is very cheap compared to a £5 that is barely fit-for-purpose, if that makes any sense. I guess I think this way because I'm coming from video games wherein for me, if a game has good graphics, good story, and good replayability, it is worth more thana game with awesome graphics but is over in 10 hours. Then again, "value" is a relative term :D Still, I do see your point about the going-rate and such, so if I can get the exact same item for less, then yeah, that's an even better deal but even knowing that I could've saved a few £££ if I ordered online, the brushes are so awesome that I don't regret it at all.

With regards to the brush cleaner, well, I usually paint during the weekends and maybe once or twice for 30-50 minutes during the week. Obviously, all that dead time in between, I'd like to clean my brushes properly so that by the next time I paint, I'm not left with a bunch of gunk in the bristles and end up destroying the brush because of too-vigorous cleaning. BTW, I've been reading a few "brush care" threads and a few of them mentioned your dual-pot cleaning method (or something like that) but my search-fu is really weak, I was wondering if you could point me in the right direction. Sorry about that, I'm not too good at searching threads.

I'm sorry to hear about your "losses," gohkm and Dragonsreach. Still, I think it's about time them brushes retired, eh? :D
 

Einion

New member
-Ice said:
However, from what I understand it, "spring" refers to the ability for the brush to "spring back" into shape, yes? If so, I was referring to the firm "feel" of the brush, "stiffness" if you will.
Some people will describe that as spring, but the repointing ability specifically can be referred to as snap.

That's spring.

-Ice said:
BTW, I've been reading a few "brush care" threads and a few of them mentioned your dual-pot cleaning method (or something like that) but my search-fu is really weak, I was wondering if you could point me in the right direction. Sorry about that, I'm not too good at searching threads.
A simple search for "double-bath system" should find the bulk of them. For more involved searching definitely a good idea to get used to using the advanced search (see link in my sig).

But I'll highlight this recentish one, since there're a raft of links in it.

Totally agree on the game front BTW but I'm not sure of how applicable the analogy is to this. Value for money is an important aspect of materials selection but the bottom line should really be, well, the bottom line :)

Separate from the issue of various price points for a single product, it's worth highlighting that you might be able to get a similar-performing brush for half the retail price of a Series 7. That's no small beans.


Dragonsreach said:
Know the feeling. Just recently snapped the shaft of a W&N7 No1.
When I looked at it the wood was so old it was crumbled in places, must be somewhere between 9-10 years old as the gold writing had all gone but for the number.
I've got lots of those (all gone, including the number) which is the reason I have difficulty in telling which Kolinsky rounds I own have lasted well, I often can't bloody tell which brand they are!

I'm sure I've had this happen with a brush that was only used a dozen or so times too, although I wouldn't have thought that I rubbed the handles particularly... I think it must be how I hold the brush when rinsing briskly.

Einion
 

Torn blue sky

New member
I've got lots of those (all gone, including the number) which is the reason I have difficulty in telling which Kolinsky rounds I own have lasted well, I often can't bloody tell which brand they are!

I'm sure I've had this happen with a brush that was only used a dozen or so times too, although I wouldn't have thought that I rubbed the handles particularly... I think it must be how I hold the brush when rinsing briskly.

Einion

Yeah I get the same thing on some that i've used for only a short while. It is bloody confusing trying to figure out which one you're looking for in particular when that does happen though!
 

IdofEntity

New member
Masking tape and fine-tip marker, my friend. Had a stellar performing brush that I couldn't identify and thus get another one. After that I started putting a long strip of masking tape with a unique number on it, then kept a spreadsheet on my laptop. Helps you remember which are the crap brushes too.
 

Dragonsreach

Super Moderator
Masking tape and fine-tip marker, my friend. Had a stellar performing brush that I couldn't identify and thus get another one. After that I started putting a long strip of masking tape with a unique number on it, then kept a spreadsheet on my laptop. Helps you remember which are the crap brushes too.

Way too organised, mate. Way too organised.:rotfl:
 

Dragonsreach

Super Moderator
Masking tape and fine-tip marker, my friend. Had a stellar performing brush that I couldn't identify and thus get another one. After that I started putting a long strip of masking tape with a unique number on it, then kept a spreadsheet on my laptop. Helps you remember which are the crap brushes too.

Way too organised, mate. Way too organised.
 

IdofEntity

New member
Seems that way at first, but how much money have I saved in the long haul? At least $50 so far, and it only takes an hour.

Okay, maybe something is wrong with me.
 

NightFallArts

New member
Welcome to the club...
I have been using series 7 for a couple of months and can say that i love mine.
You should also try the Rafael brushes they normally cost a little more than the series 7.
 
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