Need Veteran Stark Help - 1st Stark List featuring Stalwart Tully

[Tony4095]

So, I'm fairly new to ASOIAF and have only played a few games with Nights Watch and Neutrals. I would like to paint up a small Tully centric Stark force (30-40pts) featuring units/characters that I like from the books and/or show. Not sure if they would mesh well together as a united force and/or have any synergy. I would like them to both hit hard (Umbers) and have some resilience (Sworn Shields and Stalwart). Being fairly resistant to Morale/Panic checks due to Stalwart units is what I'm thinking of as an initial direction. As I read up on Stark tactics and attempt to learn about the Blackfish and how he plays (in all his forms), I though some veteran Stark players may have some hard fought battlefield lessons or wisdom to share. Can I make a fairly competitive list from the following? If there is an obvious improvement that stays close to my goals/theme, I'm open to any and all advice.

Commanders/NCUs/Attachments:
Brynden Tully (Any version, but preferrably as a Commander)
Maege Mormont
Brienne of Tarth (optional, but like Stalwart theme)
Other character attachments/NCUs open to suggestion

Units:
Umber Berserkers
Umber Great Axes
Stark Outriders
Tully Sworn Shield
Other Units open to suggestion

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Just trying to avoid any obvious problems/issues with my initial plan. Thanks.

 

[Starkadia]

From what you want to be playing, you can absolutely make a competitive list.

First of all, I'll say that the choices for units have got one great thing in common, they all want to be right in the thick of the fighting, though for different reasons. The Tully Sworn Shields are an amazing anvil unit, good defense saves and the ability to block hits from the front make them a very hard unit to move. Umber Berserkers are different from every other unit in that they're rolling more dice as they lose units, so you want them dug in and attacking or charging every round you can. The Umber Greataxes are my favorite unit to field and since they've come out I've never played a game without them, their Mighty Cleave is glorious against units with poor defense, but the Executioner's Fury is what will have you inviting charges, the ability to ignore defense saves entirely is absolutely game changing, especially when directed against units used to being nearly invincible, like the Bolton Flayed Men. Stark Outriders are very good, the ability to retreat when attacked is great, but I'll go over them more in a bit.

For your commander, both versions of Brynden are good, and will serve you well, but my preference is for Outrider Commander because of his commander cards, and because you can keep a unit of Outriders in reserve and drop them onto the field turn 1, then have your NCU take the maneuver space on the tactics board, and BOOM, first turn charge from an enemy's flank and a threat in their deployment zone that your opponent will not be able to ignore, leaving you in a better position to advance the rest of your forces upfield. The Blackfish by contrast is about holding the line, his commander cards are more defensive in nature and he can restore a wound on a successful morale check, worth noting is that this is not an order, so it can be done as many times as you want, and given his Stalwart granting a +2 to morale checks, he's hard pressed to fail those tests. So which Commander you take will be determined by how you want to play the game.

For NCUs and Attachments, I'd definitely recommend Catelyn Stark as an NCU, both because she was born a Tully (for your Tully theme) and because everyone always wants to be rolling as many dice as possible. If no one's hurt, I usually have her target the Umber Berserkers since she lets whoever she's influence roll their maximum attack dice, not their unharmed value, an important distinction. Maege can go with any unit, her ability is universal, and can really go anywhere. Brienne I'd put with the Greataxes since +2 dice on Executioner's Fury is ridiculous in damage output.

I hope that all made sense.

 

[Tony4095]

THANK YOU Starkadia for your response & advice. I was beginning to think the North was dead. I'd written off Catelyn for my initial plans, but may reconsider. Have you (or anyone else) had any opinions or experience (good or bad) w Sansa, Arya, or Ned as NCUs (especially with the units I plan to field)? Ned seems really good for keeping your units topped off and at full strength, and Sansa and Arya both have powerful abilities (albeit only once per game). Really wish they could do their special actions 2-3 times per game, maybe on a 2+ or 3+ like Varys. I also lament that Brienne's ability has to designate an enemy unit before deployment. Makes it really easy to nullify, I think. Brienne might get bumped in favor of Bran & Hodor.

 

[Oakwolf]

THANK YOU Starkadia for your response & advice. I was beginning to think the North was dead. I'd written off Catelyn for my initial plans, but may reconsider. Have you (or anyone else) had any opinions or experience (good or bad) w Sansa, Arya, or Ned as NCUs (especially with the units I plan to field)? Ned seems really good for keeping your units topped off and at full strength, and Sansa and Arya both have powerful abilities (albeit only once per game). Really wish they could do their special actions 2-3 times per game, maybe on a 2+ or 3+ like Varys. I also lament that Brienne's ability has to designate an enemy unit before deployment. Makes it really easy to nullify, I think. Brienne might get bumped in favor of Bran & Hodor.

I’m going to go on a limb and state that currently you can’t really go wrong with Starks units you mentioned as far as we found out. They are all great for the job they’re made for, and sort of “foolproof” with good morale.

Brandyn Tully is quite the cockroach really. Both his versions are really hard to dislodge, one via tenacity, the other with speed and cunning.

For the foot version of him, there’s a classic trick of using 2 units of Tully Sworn Shields, with the Blackfish and Maege Mormont as their respective attachments.Their goal is to move forward to tactical positions and engage the best the enemy can muster. They’ll tough it out. Then they would be supported by Stark Bowmen (one or two unit) who proceed to shoot into the melee. Given the 4+ morale of the Sworn Shields units,their capacity to take punishment like few other, and their attachment’s order triggering on morale checks from their own arrows, the volleys just improve the Tully’s “Shield Wall”.

You do have to protect those bowmen though, which could be a liability in some situations. I’d support the force with Outriders if possible. It’s a medium cavalry but very quick and often able to push or delay units that would try to outflank the sworn shields.

For the cavalry version of Brandyn Tully, I’d say that the Tully Cavaliers might change the whole game for him, as it’ll be possible to get a full mounted force. The Outriders are already good as stated above.

As for NCUs I’d go with either Catelyn Tully or Eddard Stark. Catelyn is more popular, but considering the theme of outlasting enemies, Eddard’s order tokens can help hold against the odds for even longer. If you wish 2 NCU I’d go for Sansa, as getting the right tactic card with Brandyn Tully can save theday. You have to know exactly when to use it though.

That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t hire Sworn Swords, Greataxes, Berserkers with Brandyn Tully either. Depending on the faction I’d face, these units can really push a lot of weight for their cost. The Berserkers are great vs Boltons and Lannisters, and the Greataxes would definitely have a field day against Free Folks (btw if you get greataxes, make sure you bring something to get the vulnerable condition on their target, then use Mighty Cleave for hilarity). Actually the Greataxes are one of the more threatening unit I see in the Starks army at the moment.

Last but not least, the Sworn Swords are really good too, and flexible as you’re not forced to use Stark’s Fury. They can be used as a tag team with the Tully Sworn Shields much like hammer and anvil.

The fun part with the Tully theme is that they are really resilient, which is not exactly the Stark’s usual strong point (they suffer from attrition with their own offense), and able to actually do damage too (unlike some Lannister units). In addition, so far Brandyn Tully is the only character in the game that we have 4 versions of (2 commanders, 2 attachments), so you can vary your force a lot while still keeping in theme.

(Issues with the editor of this forum)

 

[AlxRaven]

I absolutely second the use of the Bowmen/Sworn Shields combo. It can be devastating for the opponent, and has earned their points in more battles than not. I like to use the Sworn Shields as the protection for the Bowmen. That way they have to fall into the trap set to get to the archers.

Catelyn is fantastic if you also take Berserkers. Influence them until they get hurt, then shift to influencing the archers as they take damage.

I know you want to use Brynden as the Commander, and I’m not sure who you’ll use to stick with your theme if you go this route, but the mounted attachment version with the heal on retreat coupled with the Outriders Free retreat order has possibly given my opponent more heartache than the Bowmen/Sworn Shields combo. And saved my bacon on many occasions. Charge in for the attack, get attacked back, retreat and heal while often being able to get better position for the next charge, wash, rinse, repeat. It usually forces the opponent to focus multiple attacks against them to overcome the healing, which allows your other units more freedom.

The only other advice id give a new Stark player, which doesn’t fit here but I’ll say it anyway, just in case. Should you play armies that include Direwolves, don’t over extend them. They may look like they can take a hit, but they go down quick to lucky/bad rolls. Remember that they are support units.

 

[Oakwolf]

I know you want to use Brynden as the Commander, and I’m not sure who you’ll use to stick with your theme if you go this route, but the mounted attachment version with the heal on retreat coupled with the Outriders Free retreat order has possibly given my opponent more heartache than the Bowmen/Sworn Shields combo. And saved my bacon on many occasions. Charge in for the attack, get attacked back, retreat and heal while often being able to get better position for the next charge, wash, rinse, repeat. It usually forces the opponent to focus multiple attacks against them to overcome the healing, which allows your other units more freedom.

Oh god...yeah, the annoyance! I lost a siege game solely due to that awesome bastard. And you can use your NCU to add insult to injury with the Maneuvre/wealth zone. With Eddard they can heal on both retreat and the charge...

The unit is pretty much impossible to kill unless a mistake occurs or the Stark player lets it happen due to other priorities.

 

[Tony4095]

That's some great and obviously some hard-won advice. I like all versions of the Blackfish & cant wait to try them each out. I'm painting up my two units this coming weekend, as a matter of fact. I am very excited for the Tully Cavaliers to hit the shelves for the options and list diversity they'll provide.
Do you guys ever find any of the Neutral NCUs more useful in a Stark list than the Stark ones? Varys & Littlefinger seem pretty powerful, but maybe not so much for what the Starks are trying to do??????

 

[Oakwolf]

They are both very strong, with Varys being more popular due to his obvious effect. I'd say Littlefinger might be less used but it's simply a matter of practice. There are ways to create very nasty comboes with Littlefinger, like have him take the crown to block circei, then use the manoeuvre effect on your Outriders. That'll get them to charge. If they're attacked they can retreat for free, then use another NCU to claim the manoeuvre zone for a 2nd charge. That being said, the Starks are not short of great NCUs. All of them are good...which seems to be a running trend with this faction. If you're playing Howland Reed, i'd consider Arya Stark to get that "surprise" free maneuvre at the right time, which is key for the Crannogmen.

 

[Tony4095]

Good info, but I think the Littlefinger claiming a diff zone but using maneuver zone effect to trigger Rapid Charge was FAQed to not work like that anymore. I think I saw it in FAQ 1.4.

 

[Oakwolf]

Good info, but I think the Littlefinger claiming a diff zone but using maneuver zone effect to trigger Rapid Charge was FAQed to not work like that anymore. I think I saw it in FAQ 1.4.

Quite correct for the Outriders's ability. Littlefingers still creates some unique combos like getting 2x the effect of a zone in the same turn.

 

[Tony4095]

Yes, that possibility can be really intriguing, especially attack, maneuver, and wealth zones. I think I'll paint my Littlefinger up & try him out soon to see how it affects a game.

 

[Oakwolf]

Yes, that possibility can be really intriguing, especially attack, maneuver, and wealth zones. I think I'll paint my Littlefinger up & try him out soon to see how it affects a game.

Let us know how this goes. The situation or opportunity for a "double-zone" combo is not that frequent or optimal, but it's there.

You need to be sneaky in hiding your true intentions, as you need to leave the desired zone open for your 2nd NCU to claim it. When it works...it does provides a unique force multiplier. The more powerful the double-tag becomes, the more "obvious" it is for your opponent to block...however that could be your plan.

 

[BroZane]

So a bit late here, but why not add my two cents?

So Tully Commander, purposes of synergy I'd roll with Brynden Tully 'The Blackfish': reasoning is that his Commander cards, unlike his mounted varient, tend to work rather universally, with just ruder benefits to Tully units.

As far as NCU's go, regaurdless of how you build your force there are three I HIGHLY recommend having at least one of, they are Eddard Stark, Catelyn Stark, and Rodrik Cassel. If you not sure who to use for your list and you wanna play with t, just take Eddard of these three and be a jerk at least 3 times.

Now for units, and hear me on this Imma list some recommendations that are not Umbers. Noone needs another paragraph about the greatness of Umbers.

For consideration...

House Bolton Cutthroats: I know right? Wierd. I actually prefer to put the Blackfish in this unit !yself, it's cheap but decent, the greatest weaknesses of this are it's armour value and moral. Stalwart benefits by turning this from a 7+ to a 5+, which is kinda dumbwhen paired with "Blackfish's Resolve" or the "Refuse To Yield" tactics card, also cute on both ends when Eddard is an NCU.

House Tully Sworn Shields: No duh, I have three recommendations for this unit, though do what is comfy for you. Firstly, Sworn Sword Captains, the largest drawback to Sworn Shields is their lack of penetration. 7 dice on 3+ is mighty fine but most fielded units are kind of a pain. Sword Captains however have "Order: Martial Training" which after your attack dice are rolled, gives the opposing unit a Vulnerable Token, which is nice. Pair that with some tactics cards foor either offense or defence (such as Set For Charge or Winter is Coming" and it's surprising how much damage the little tanks that could are capable of. My second recommendation is the painfully expensive Greatjon Umber. He makes the unit a painful 10 points but for the added bonus of a free charge from the tactics board, a Stark classic, and rolls of a 6 don't allow saves. The choice is yours there, I highly recommend the Captains, but Greatjon works great with Eddard or Rodrik in this regard. The third one is Meera Reed. I listed her last because she is a bit tricky. For defensive play she is damn good for 1 point but other than that you can accomplish greater things with the other two, but don't discount her, a possible 3 free wounds and a disorders charge into a shield wall or set for charge is just gross. A fourth choice is Syrio Forel, simply makes this unit rude at least once a turn.

Stark Sworn Swords: these are always great, pair them with Tully is you want to love and hate yourself, or with Maege Mormont or Brienne for a suicide torpedo (very likely to die but all but garunteed to kill whatever you run them into), highly recommended you take Eddard or Catelyn for this unit.

Stark Bowmen: their praises have been sung above by Oakwolf, and the combo when they have a Crannogman Warden with them is just ruder. What's also rude is if Rodrik is your Commander and he is in this unit as his "Press the Advantage" gives the unit critical blows on a 5+, but I'm crazy so yeah. I wouldn't really recommend these guys though, are they great? Yes. Is the Shield wall combo agrivating as hell? Yes. But they tend to be the easy target of moral based attacks, and it's kind of a shame to waste Brienne or Maege on them.

Crannogman Trackers: same as with Bowmen, but shorter range and more synergy with other units.

Bolton Bastard's Girls: same as Crannogman, but with strangely better synergy, though better with a different Commander. Still, all three ranged units should be considered.

Stark Outriders and Bolton Flayed Men: these are great but I just don't recommend them for Tully, even the mounted one...not as a Commander mind you. Flayed Men are devastating with the Commander attachment, but I personally find the non-commander mounted Tully to be best used in the Outriders. Hear me out: for Flayed Men, the Commander varient increases their movement to 6, which makes the average, however the sheer brutality of the War Flail(critical blows and vicious) when paired with 'Ride Them Down' and/or 'Heavy Impact' tactics cards is just...just rude. 'Ride-by Attack' works better with the Outriders, because 14 inch movement is dumb. Now, the reason I prefer attachment Tully to Commander in the Outriders is because of 'Regroup'. Outriders charge, smash, they get hit? Order: Swift Retreat, Regroup, heal d3+1 wounds. Tadah. Work stupid well with Eddard, Rodrik, or Robb as commanders.

That...should about cover it for units...umm NCU's...

Sansa Stark: always useful, even in a bind. Tactics cards are important.
Catelyn Stark: again, always useful.
Eddard Stark: great synergy with Blackfish on defense and offense.
Rodrik Cassel: great synergy with any list trying to focus on more agressive tactics. Works great with Greatjon (I did that on purpose).
Arya Stark: functions both similarly and differently than Sansa, still useful, especially in objective games. Get the Shields into the fight.
Petyr Baelish and Lord Varys: these two are useful in nearly every force but are usually not needed as you have better options.

So yeah...that my two cents. I hope it proves at least somewhat informative. Oh! A side note as to why I left out the Umbers.

Umber Units are damn good, but I've been playing Starks since the game released and frankly...that is all I see. Lannisters? Either Tyrion, Tywin, or the Mountain, maybe a High Sparrow or Joffry. Bolton are either neutrals or mixed with Lannisters of Nightswatch. Nightswatch and Freefolk are...themselves, but Starks...might as well call the faction Umbers. So I've actively tried to make other units and commanders more competitive through combinations just to break up the monotony. And before anyone comments on my listing of Greatjon Umber, the attachment doesn't count as an Umber nor make the unit an Umber, only the Commander...so in the thinnest of technicalitys I've stayed true to that.

 

[Oakwolf]

So a bit late here, but why not add my two cents?

That's more than two cents!

Good ideas around for sure. I am also glad to see a recommendation for Eddard Stark. I think he is underestimated in some places (from what i read).

 

[Tony4095]

I've considered Eddard the NCU, but havent tried him yet. Same for Sirio, but tough to fit him (and w Arya 5pts) in with all the other great attachments like Maege, Bran & Hodor, etc. I also think Meera Reed has some play for dmg output and to stifle charges on your slow Tully Sworn Shields.

I, too, really like The Blackfish infantry commander version. His cards seem to all be really useful all/most of the time. I've never cycled through as many cards as when I ran the Blackfish. I can't wait for Tully Cavaliers to arrive. Hope they are different from other heavy cav in both interesting & beneficial ways.

 

[BroZane]

I can't wait for Tully Cavaliers to arrive. Hope they are different from other heavy cav in both interesting & beneficial ways.

Apparently they are super slow, and super weak to Tormund Giant's Bane...think movement 4 Lannister Cav...but Tully.

 

[BroZane]

That's more than two cents!

Good ideas around for sure. I am also glad to see a recommendation for Eddard Stark. I think he is underestimated in some places (from what i read).

Thanks, I try, especially since I typed all that up on my tablet...which was a pain.

But yes, I'm super fond of Eddard, in both forms, and I rarely field one without the other(Eddard and Tully). But yeah, all of this opinion of mine comes from me just playing around and that is what I've gathered, and overall I've found that Stark's have an amazing "alpha strike". Sure spending alot of points in a single turn kinda sucks (see my topic about using Arya on a unit of Tully Sworn Shield's being influenced by Rodrik and commanded by Greatjon), but with the right play of tactics cards and timing, I can't garuntee the results...because you know...dice...but I'm confident that you can make your opponents heart skip a few beats, if not totally demoralize them from the sheer shock value of seeing something on the lines of Bolton Flayed Men getting deleted by a unit without Sundering or Vicious.

So ultimately, pick a set up, roll some dice, see what you like and dislike. Starks are hearty and the Tully's are tough...so they can pull through.

 

[Tony4095]

Looks like the Stark/Tully Stalwart dream just got better. Saw some spoiled Tully Cavalier models and stat card today in FB/Instagram. Same basic stats as Lannister Knights, same lances, but instead of Lannister supremacy they have Embolden which gives +1 morale to other units within short range. 9 pts is disappointing, but still excited. Model sculpts very good. The Blackfish just got reinforcements. Hopefully unit releases soon. I'll be buying 2.

 

[Tony4095]

Used a version of the Stalwart Tullys last night (led by Robb the wolf Lord w Grey Wind, healthy dose of Umbers), Brynden Tully Vanguard Infiltrator attachment in Outriders, Maege the She-Bear in some Tully Sworn Shields, Umber Great Axes (Robb in this unit), and some Umber berserkers against a friend's new Baratheon starter box + a unit of Bolton Cutthroats. The Blackfish as a cav unit attachment performed brilliantly (especially in Outriders w free retreat triggering Brynden's heal), and Maege's stalwart morale boost along with her auto wound order really shores up the weaknesses of the Tully SSs other than their slow speed (lack of offensive punch & average morale).
The Blackfish came on turn 1 and destroyed some Sentinels w a rear charge, then almost got the Stag Knight unit after another two rounds. By the time the Blackfish-led Outriders were cornered and taken out in turn 4, the Baratheon battle line was thoroughly disrupted and the odds had shifted firmly in favor of the Starks. The Great Axes also did great against that tough Baratheon 3+ armor/defense, and their slow speed wasnt as much a hindrance with the Baratheons even a bit slower as a whole. The Baratheons definitely have some play with all of their condition token hand outs w their lady NCU and the Warden's weakened token mechanic. The Stag Knights are heavy hitters and attrition really well, and Stannis in some Wardens is one tough nut to crack. But the Stalwart Tully's with that clever Blackfish were more than up to the challenge. Super fun game. I think the Baratheons have a strong core, but lack a few units offering flexibility. The upcoming hero boxes and some mobile units will help them immensely. Right now they are not diverse enough.

 

[BroZane]

Grats on the victory, and yeah I can see what you mean about Baratheons. Though they can, for now, suppliment themselves with some Bolton's(loyalty doesn't apply as Bolton's arnt loyal to anyone, they are merely affiliated). So who knows what can come of that.

Also I'm curious as to how the new Tully cav will work out, I'm just glad they swapped out that weakness to Giantsbane rule from ancient teaser times.