Line of sight for swooping Hawk grenade packs?

[Gapow]

Hi,

Can anyone advise where the line of sight is drawn from when using the Swooping Hawk grenade pack. The fluff always says that they are released as they fly into battle.

The trouble seems to appear with 5th eds true LoS rules and the fact cover is worked out from the model with regards to blast templates. I dropped my grenades on an IG squad that were out in the open and my oponent tried to claim a cover save, as they were slightly obscured fro the hawks when they were placed on the board.

There are no special rules written into the 4th ed codex as it may not have mattered back then. Following the 5th ed rules for blast templates it does say draw LoS from the models and nothing in the codex to contradict this

My argument is that they would have released it when in the sky (as all the fluff and old rules state) so the Los isn't drawn after they land. They don't land then lob them across the board!

What's your take on this?

 

[me_in_japan]

Rules-as-written are unclear. The hawks are not firing a blast weapon as defined in the 40k rulebook. The hawk grenade pack rules are very specific. They say: "any time a swooping hawk unit uses its Deep Strike ability, it may place a large blast marker centred on an enemy model..." Note that it does not say "fire a weapon" or make any reference to the blast marker rules. You just place the template and work out hits and damage, which according to the current ruleset, means that every model touched by the template is hit, and then damage is rolled for.

As you say, the hawks are dropping the grenades straight down, not throwing them. If the IG were in a forest or piece of area terrain, I'd say give them a save. If they're behind a wall, I'd say no. I usually use the rule for ordnance, in which cover saves can be taken as if the shot emanated from the centre of the blast marker (cos it drops straight down then explodes. Sound familiar?)

I'm tempted to say you could avoid the problem entirely by placing the template before you put the hawks on the table. i.e. you say "I'm deploying my hawks by deep strike now", then put the blast template down, because the rules say "any time a swooping hawk unit uses its Deep Strike ability". You work out hits etc, take off casualties, then put down your hawks. However, this could be problematic if you subsequently flub your deployment and have to roll on the deep strike mishap chart.

If your opponent is the kind of person who regularly pulls this kind of rules lawyering in the face of common sense then my advice would be to find another opponent. If you just want a clear ruling so you know in the future, my advice would be to ask your opponent before the game starts, and suggest that you use the ordnance rules for saves.

40k is game beset by such troubles, and the only way to work it out is to encounter the problem in a game then make up a house-rule. In a tourney, an independant judge would make this kind of ruling. What's bugging me at the moment is the way my Dark Eldar Razorwing routinely gets immobilsed by ending its move over a swamp and failing its dangerous terrain test. Then it gets assaulted by genestealers. Logically, both of these are physically impossible, but that's what the rules say.

 

[blackbolt]

well u know it it moved fast and got immobilized then it wrecks

 

[Gapow]

Hi thanks for the help,

We used the ordnance rules this game as suggested and I had no complaints about using it. Think the rule lawyering was because it said "any time they deep strike" not "at any point during a deepstrike move".

I totally agree with you with regards to the fliers having to take dangerous terrain test, my opponent always gets frustrated when using his Valk. Rumours are that they will give fliers seperate rules in 6th ed, whenever thats out. It makes sense a grav tank hovering inches above the ground would have to avoid rocks etc but not a fighter jet!

I'm still struggling to get to grips with his IG, just seem to take a beating with my Eldar, obviously not taking the right force!