Kingdom Death thoughts and regrets

[ravelock]

Hi guys, wanted to share my thoughts on this promising (at start) company. I am on of the backers - unfortunately. I say "unfortunately", because I ve lost any hope of this company fulfilling their goals. It s always the same, if you read their official thread: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/poots/kingdom-death-monster/posts, always another delay after delay.
This thread is getting more ridiculous as it goes on and on and on about yet - you guess: another delay with funny titles like Sacred backer time cancelled today, and latest Be strong (seem a bit like mocking to me). Now, nevermind the quality of their minis, their bussiness is quite awfull: waiting for a few YEARS for this game is plainly ridiculous. I lost count how many times Mr. Poots changed delivery time of this game, and as a BACKER I got exactly zero. Not to mention that I became backer because resin, which Mr.Poots arbitrarily changed to plastics I don t even want.
Of course, regarding that I wanted out, I don't have years to waste on waiting, but Mr. Poots leisury (after a few weeks of waiting for response, I think - oh he is very busy, I know) informed me that any refund is impossible because their resources are tight - It left me wondering how can that be, their sale of minis seems to go quite well, and refunding one backer wouldn t ruin the company . Poor, poor bussiness and very bad for supposed reputation of Kingdom Death. Which drives me to other conclusion: once they got their money from supposedly sacred backers, it s goodbye Charlie.
What started as a lovely and refreshing company, now turned to be very unattractive and tedious enterprise with hazy goals at best, because Mr. Poots should realize that tempo of today s life simply cannot tolerate such a long wait so some game to get out on the market. I sincerely doubt that game will be released even this year, considering such experience, and I can t even be refunded via PayPal because years have expired since I made payment - CAVEAT EMPTOR. If anyone else has similar experience, please comment.
Thanks, Max

 

[Bailey03]

I can definitely understand the frustration, delivery for the kickstarter has been looooong delayed. But, I think you are overly pessimistic. Statements like "I've lost any hope of this company fulfilling their goals" and "Which drives me to other conclusion: once they got their money from supposedly sacred backers, it s goodbye Charlie" seem very off the mark. The most recent updates has given a helpful breakdown of tool production and just the other day Adam posted that plastic production is finally complete and they are moving on to printing and packing:
"Micro-Update! All files for print, have been delivered to the printer! All plastic production is finished and in the hands of the printers. We are now moving into the printing and packing phase. This week, we are taking it a little easy here at the studio. It was MAX effort right up to the finish line and we are all pretty exhausted. Next update "soon"."

And I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Not to mention that I became backer because resin, which Mr.Poots arbitrarily changed to plastics I don t even want." The basic game was always meant to be plastic. You can get resin versions of many of the figures as add ons and there was a pledge option for an all resin version of the game. As far as I'm aware, none of that changed. What was supposed to be resin and then got changed to plastic?

As for the refund, that is frustrating... but considering the long delay I doubt you're the only person who wants a refund. So if you refund one, you're going to have to refund probably a lot more than that. I also don't know when you asked for a refund, but if it was recently (ie after plastic production) I can understand that being a problem. When people talk about refunds I feel like they're looking at kickstarter as a pre-order site rather than a site to fund projects. The whole point of kickstarter is to donate money to projects you believe in and help them become a reality. In return, they provide rewards but it's not the same as pre-ordering a mostly ready project from a regular business. I know some projects offer refunds, but that is not kickstarter policy and, if they are able to fulfill the pledges, there is no requirement to refund anyone.

All that being said, yes, Kingdom Death has had monumental delays. And communication from Adam has not been good enough. He tried to fix this with the 'Sacred Backer Time' which soon got dropped. I am sure a lot of backers were initially very excited but have long since lost interest in the project. In retrospect, I wish Adam had started out with a smaller project or done a phased production/delivery model. If he had focused on just the basic game and shipped that as a Phase 1 before moving on to the various expansions and extras maybe we would have gotten the first part close to the original deadline. Of course no one can predict the future, but knowing what we know now, there are plenty of things that I wish would have been different about the project. Still, I am confident they will deliver before the end of the year and it will be up to the high standards they promised when the project first started.

I've backed several kickstarters that I came to regret. As a result I have become much more selective about which projects I now support. And experience has taught me to expect delays, if a project comes in only 3-6 months past the deadline I consider that to be pretty good. Kingdom Death is far beyond that (getting closer to a year and a half past the date) and frustration is very understandable.

There still seems to be a lot of interest in KD's figures and game. So, if you've lost interest, I have a feeling you can recoup most of your original investment by reselling everything on eBay once it is delivered. Considering all the extras and exclusives added to the kickstarter version you may even make a profit reselling it.

 

[MAXXxxx]

It's the nature of Kickstarters. Especially if there are only plans for the product (like here) and is not a preorder system as by some others (and even they are constantly delayed).
And so far every 'successful' (meaning size exploded through the roof) got delays to produce the extras introduced during the campaign.

Not to mention that I became backer because resin, which Mr.Poots arbitrarily changed to plastics I don t even want.

What do you mean by this? All that was changes was the PVC for the plastic. And believe me that's better like that. Especially after seeing the Xmas and the pinup boxes, they are soo close to the resin version, that it's frightening.
The resin versions(that costed $25 during the campaign) stay resin, so the only problem will be waiting it out.

So, if you've lost interest, I have a feeling you can recoup most of your original investment by reselling everything on eBay once it is delivered.

not only most, but I think all + profit is possible.
During the KS we paid $90 or so for the box, now the MSRP is around $220-250. So even if you sell everything at 50% off you'll be about even.

 

[Mark77]

I agree with Ravelock 100%, my experience was quite similar.
Due to long delays, I m not interested in this game any more, I asked Poots to refund me too, but he refused with curt reply which I waited for about 4 weeks.
I consider my investment a great loss so far, riddled with disappointment and huge uncertainty.
Bad business indeed, I think Poots is laying on the initial laurels from the success at the very start, and in truth considers the situation "as it is", meaning that no amount of long texts in his threads or tweets, finding refuge in excuses or whatever will change the fact that he simply does not deliver, merely delays.

 

[ravelock]

Thanks Bailey 03 for you reply.
All in all, i don t think I m being pessimistic, just realistic, but that s my opinion of the matter. In conclusion, backers suffer delay after delay, with no end visible in the near future - speculating about packaging or delivery date are just that, speculations because the thing is, there is no guarantee when or, i daresay, if, any delivery will be made. Yes, I know, this sounds pessimistic too, but those are hard facts if you consider how much time passed and how many "promises" or should I say guesses from KD about "delivery" time went awry or were changed just like that.

As for the refund, now I m not a lawyer, but the fact is I payed hard earned money for this game directly to Kingdom Death account, and I have:
1) no guarantee when or if I will ever see "the box" - pessimistic, but another "delay" is always possible;

2) KD - which got payed, refuses to refund me, which I think is not impossible but just matter of their will, and would be fair considering
how much time passed which I explained earlier, or if you wish, circumstances changed if you look on this as a sort of a contract so I am requesting simply my money back; refunding other backers is reality for KD, but also their problem (KD s), they should have thought of it before, but backers certainly should not suffer because of their inadequacy,and should get their money back if they wish because they didn t get what they payed for, for such a long time;
so, when it comes to refund, it seems backers are not so "sacred" to Poots anyway as he claims!

3) your suggestion about recouping my original investment via ebay is nice, but considering point 1, that is a future "far, far away" an "if". Considering Maxxxxx suggestion about ebay, I don t think I ll be getting any profit, I payed darned box $220.

Anyway, I think interest about this game is dropping considerably due to everything I said before (time stands still for no man), which is recently visible from many other forums, as well as there are many new fresh kickstarters about which actually make good on their promises (unlike KD).
Anyway, thanks for all comments :victory:.

 

[ozymandias]

I will happily buy you out at the price you paid.

 

[Bailey03]

Back when this project started I was extremely excited about the game and really looking forward to it. My excitement and interest has definitely decreased over time, but I am still interested in getting the game and figures. I think when it arrives there will be renewed interest from a lot of backers, though not all of them. Even now their figure limited edition figures sell for significant mark ups on eBay. I expect there will be a market for the kickstarter rewards on ebay. But, it's a matter of opinion for now, as is what I'm about to say. From everything I've seen the quality of the game's components look even better than what was originally proposed. Adam has said that the plastic production is finished and everything needed for the paper components are with the printers. To me, I'd say an end is definitely visible in the near future (next 6 months). Until it is shipped, there's always the possibility of delay. But when people say stuff like 'IF they ever deliver', I just don't see where they're coming from. Although it's very late, there is no doubt in my mind that this project will eventually be delivered. Again, they said that the plastic production is complete and the rest of the stuff is with the printers. What do you expect is going to happen at this point that will keep them from delivering?

While I may disagree on some points, I totally understand the frustration. Clearly the long delays and lack of regular communication has alienated a number of customers. I also understand the desire to get a refund. Unfortunately, I don't think you've got much legal recourse to get one. Here's what kickstarter terms of use has to say about refunds:
"Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill."

From what I've read, I don't think a long delay is enough to get refund. As long as Kingdom Death continues to work on the project you're not guaranteed a refund.

 

[gohkm]

Has it been 18 months already? I waited 2.5 years for Tre Manor's first Kickstarter. I can wait at least that long for KD:M.

 

[Mark77]

I will gladly sell my pledge to you if you want - same price, $220. If you want, PM me for details.

 

[Mark77]

ozymandias I will gladly sell my pledge to you if you want - same price, $220. If you want, PM me for details.

 

[Bailey03]

Ha, well its about 15 months past the estimated ship date. My longest wait was for the third stage of Dreamforge's project. That was about 20 months past their estimated ship date.

Ravelock, you've already got one person interested in buying your pledge. If you post which country/region you're in you may be able to find more.

 

[gohkm]

What does your pledge comprise, Ravelock? I might consider buying you out, especially if you are in the States.

 

[MAXXxxx]

well at $220 won't be much more than the base box. Either that + 1 or 2 expansions or a post KS base box only

 

[ravelock]

Ok, thanks. How can I even sell a pledge? I only have a bill from PayPal. Sorry, but I m new to this type of selling...

 

[gohkm]

Fairly simply. Happens on Bartertown quite often.

I give you the money, you tell Adam that you have moved jobs or whatever, you put in my address, and I take over your pledge.

Failing that, you get the thing, pack it up, and forward on to me. Freight is paid by me.

 

[ravelock]

Thank you!

 

[viral11]

Ravelock you have PM :eyeroll!:

 

[oistene]

Hey, if more people are looking to get rid of their pledges, I am also interested! Send me a PM.