Dungeons and Dragons is dead long live Pathfinder!

[AndyG]

Hi guys been reading on the Internet forums that 4th edition is over and 5th edition is on the way?!?!?

Got to say IMHO 4th has been deeply disappointing if you want a role playing game. WoW light on the tabletop with skills virtually gone feats dashed and powers what ever they are meant to be? Magic system trashed and player character races and classes just gone!!! They (hasbro) putting profits I.e. releasing half assed core rulebooks to encourage sales and linking it to mini sales(withdrawn) and virtual gaming (failed) and pushing the 16-18 demographic nowt wrong with that but ditching the 30-60 age bracket completely WTF? Last time I looked this was the mainstay of support for d&d and certainly the age bracket with the wonga!

Any way doesn't matter what I think but what the paying public does.

Sales trashed, supplements not released and the elephant in the room Pathfinder (or 3.75 as my gaming group calls it). Consistently outselling WOTC the majority of the gamers very happily converting to this excellent system or staying with 3.5. (allegedly)

That's the one for me no big corporate monster to feed just an excellent game system tightened right up till it purrs along like a well oiled machine.

Rumours abounding that Monte Cook being paid big bucks to head up the replacement for this looser of a system but if true (don't know only repeating what I've heard could be bollocks) by the throne of khorne he's got a big task ahead of him when they have lost most of the market to Paizo. Why would anyone change back when it's choping and changing eds after what three years?!? That's like the suited board member /accountants saying yeah walking wallets we know we don't understand your pathetic nerdy hobby and we totally FUBARd but hey trust us this will be even worse sorry we mean better when we sell it off to some poor fanboy millionaire sucker and make a last short term profit.

As you can tell I'm not bitter at all about the complete and utter f*ck up they made of the gaming system I love .......honest; this is a completely balanced appraisal of the situation and I hold no grudges :sarcastic::eyeroll!:

Any way what do you think???

 

[squidders]

I don't do thinking.

 

[AndyG]

I don't do thinking.

Oh go on....just a little bit; it won't hurt much...........well maybe a bit.

Please.

 

[vanadium322]

Monte Cook is behind the reigns, no question about that. You can read his designer "blog" stuff on the official WotC D&D site. I just hope he doesn't steer things too far back towards 3rd edition... I mean, 3rd was great fun at all (if you played a magic-user at least), but balance was terrible and high level play was unmanageable. From your post it sounds like you haven't tried fourth at all. I was pretty resistant to the change to 4e, citing a lot of the same things you did, but in all honesty once I gave it a shot I found it to be tremendously better. Mainly because it actually has balance across classes (not saying it's perfect on that point my any means- far from it- but way closer than 3rd), and the system of at-will/encounter/daily powers is so much nicer than the vancian spellcasting system of the previous editions.

Anyhow, I'm sure opinions on this will be widely varied, but I for one hope they manage to bring back more of the feel of 3rd edition while keeping a lot of the rules from 4th. From what I hear of playtests of 5e, that's not really what's happening.

 

[AndyG]

The thing for me with the magic classes was the vancian system loved it rather than the mana style magic system. Yep got to agree with the epic level stuff very hard to play. But here's the rub you could do anything with 3.5 if you wanted to make beer and blow glass to bottle it to celebrate your dungeon crawl you could do it with the 3.5 system. Hey how there we go. Glad to see him back though

 

[vanadium322]

I don't like "mana" style systems either, and 4e does not use one. More like, everyone has some limited abilities, but also something they can always do. The fighter can always swing his sword, and the wizard can always cast Magic Missile (or whatever at-will you choose). In 3rd, a wizard without any spells left was dead weight- not fun at low levels, when you have very few spells per day.

If you want to brew beer and blow glass in 4th, go for it. It just doesn't take away from choices that affect your power level- you don't give up ranks in perception or stealth or whatever skills to learn to brew beer. Just give your DM the backstory to explain that you do those things, and voila. If you really want a "crunch" reason for being able to craft things, take a crafting related background.

 

[AndyG]

I know what you mean about the low level wizard only got a few spells a day. And very difficult too keep him alive at the low levels but by jingo when he got too mid level wow. Also the way we used to deal with it was with wands and what not. The only problem with the at will is that the power of your spells is way reduced. The 3.5 might only give you a few top end spells but they could be utterly devastating. Think an army platoon the wizard was the bazooka boy only a few whizz bangs but they could lay waste too the enemy and the job of the grunts is too place him in the right position and keep him alive. Even at low level this was the case ..sleep. Mid level ....fireball. Top end .......weird , chain lightning cone of cold meteor strike etc.


Hmm I think you may have convinced me that it is not the pile of doo doo I thought it was as you are clearly enjoying it which is the main thing. Thanks for clearly going through the 4e players slant on this, kudos to you!

 

[Tarreknoire]

http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-c...nd-dragons-5th-edition-in-the-works-20120110/

http://www.wizards.com/DnD/DnDNext.aspx

http://community.wizards.com/dndnext

It was always on the cards - I knew a long time ago from a contact inside WotC that they had already drafted a 5e version (2008)...
But Monte Cook and Mike Mearls I understand have binned that entire project and started afresh and they decided that open beta testing (which proved so successful with Pathfinder) would be one of the best ways to go about - lifting the the present of D&DNext (D&D5) and get what the players want back into the D&D wotc world...

 

[AndyG]

Very informative good links.

Been having a chat with my gaming group and they all hope that the Jack Vance school of magic comes back but to be honest we're not hopeful. I think that the we've changed it so we're not going back no matter what is gonna win out

Glad about the beta testing that is a great idea worked very very well for Paizo.

Also realy hope that there is gonna be better quality control over the gaming modules, I remember playing a module which will always make me laugh the DM looked dumbfounded and then said that the damn dragon was bigger that the room it was set in lol :laugh:

 

[Kryanratz]

I've been playing Pathfinder since it was in the alpha stage all those years ago and I must say I love it. It's a much more balanced system than 3.5 was, but all of the rules are familiar.

I've never played 4e personally, but I've read the PHB and have listened to many actual play podcasts, and it just doesn't seem very fun to me. It seems to be more of a tactical miniatures combat game, and not an RPG. Just my opinion, don't hurt me.

I signed up for the "D&D Next" beta tests, as I'm very interested in WotC is going to do, but I will probably stick with Pathfinder. I find it much easier to support a game that's owned by gamers who actually listen to the community, as opposed to D&D which is run by a huge corporation. Paizo doesn't have a board of directors or shareholders to answer to - they get to do what they want, and make the game they want to play. I like that.

 

[Wicksy]

IMHO, Dungeons and Dragons died with the release of 3rd ed. With 3rd ed came ridiculously over powered classes that synergised so brokenly with addons that it made player characters unbeatable even at low levels. I know 2nd got silly with the players options but at least they were optional. Third ed. also brought rules lawyering to the masses and it felt like the roleplaying aspect was removed to pave the way for a "roll dice and win" style of game. 3.0 and 3.5 made me quit DMing and latter 3.5 made me quit D&D all together. Now the modern stuff is interesting but the fantasy stuff is bad. 4th i didnt even bother looking at......i just gave up.

 

[AndyG]

Yep loved second though THACO was always a bit weird and when you went very high level hmmm don't know if I liked the hit point progression. For me I love the skills and feats in 3rd and 3.5 yes there is rules lawyering gone mad sometimes but he'll even that can be fun if you get the right group. Put it this way I'd happily play 2nd but wouldn't play 4th says it all realy doesn't it?

 

[vanadium322]

I've never played 4e personally, but I've read the PHB and have listened to many actual play podcasts, and it just doesn't seem very fun to me. It seems to be more of a tactical miniatures combat game, and not an RPG. Just my opinion, don't hurt me.

As a 4th edition player (who also played 2nd and 3rd), I actually somewhat agree with you. Not that is isn't an RPG, but it's almost like there's a clear division between the RPG aspect and the combat aspect- you roleplay until combat starts, then you break out the tactical minis game, then once the fight is over you go back to roleplaying. It's one of the things that I dislike about 4th, but not enough to make me stop playing it.

 

[Kaledor]

Well, I still run my AD&D 1st Edition campaign that was started in 1976... yeah I'm that old...

Mr. Arneson

 

[AndyG]

Well, I still run my AD&D 1st Edition campaign that was started in 1976... yeah I'm that old...

Mr. Arneson

Right on dude!

Have you got the dieties and demigods edition with the cthulhu mythos in it? The one they had to pull because of copyright? Saw a quote for that on ebay £150 OMG!! Been reading through my old copies of 1st ed brings back some good memories though I was pretty young at the time and it was the stuff my older brother let me pretend to play bless him.

 

[philologus]

Monte Cook just left. It's all over the OSR blogs. Seems him & Mearls didn't see Eye-to-eye.

 

[AndyG]

Nooooooo well that's it then R.I.P :skeleton: D&D. Almost had hope for a decent edition with Monte on the team all gone now:sad:

 

[Ropya]

Personally I loved second.
I have every book released, and most adventures.
When I do plaY DnD its second.
Can't stand 3rd. Hated 4th.
which sucks when it comes to video games, most are based on 3.5 that I've seen anyway

 

[AndyG]

Good 2nd edition games are a bit old but wonderful way better than the newer released ones.

Baldurs Gate
Shadows of Amnn
Throne of Baal
Ice wind Dale
Heart of winter

And loads of fan based extensions etc for me baldurs gate is still the best as its Huge with loads of side quests and dungeons. Right that's it I'm gonna play it again!

 

[turkishproverb]

Eh, I like pathfinder ok, but it has many of the same problems as 3E, some of them having been made worse. Seriously, who decides that Monks need a nerf while Wizards need new free stuff?

Either, way, Dungeons and dragons lives on, in Osric, Swords and Wizardry, etc...