Black Age isnt dead...Yet

[coonass]

Black age isn\'t dead...Yet. If any of you noticed the very premature post I submitted earlier I just wanted to say that I am making progress. Alot of names and places have been changed but the story is still revolving around the Imperial/confederate perpetual war. Included are some pictures of the latest concept art and information. However, first I need to ask about some copyright stuff.

Ok, everyone knows that copyrights and plagiarism are very touchy subjects, and with lawyers coming out the woodwork you can\'t be too careful. Because of this I have a few questions that I would rather have answered by you people than by an attorney.

1. Is the \"scatter dice\" copyrighted or can anyone use it in their wargame rules.

2. On character abilities, would it be risky to use something like \"strength\" and \"toughness\" characteristics with those names since they\'ve already been used by GW. or is that plagiarism.

any answers you could give would be awesome

here is the link to the old post, if your interested

http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/viewthread.php?tid=17751

new art

old art

if You want larger versions of the art pictured, you can look here (note, the concept work is mingled with political cartoons I draw for the baton rouge advocate, liberals beware)

http://coonass.deviantart.com/gallery/

since you will most likely be the target customers if this thing ever takes off, any input from you guys would be great. The empire, now labeled the second Ramiatic Empire, is pretty much ironed out as an race but everything is still up for grabs.

 

[Aidan K]

Strength and toughness should be ok to use. The scatter dice is a trademark of GW, so i dont think you\'d get away with using it without a license from GW.

Hope this helps, and good luck!

 

[coonass]

Originally posted by Aidan K
Strength and toughness should be ok to use. The scatter dice is a trademark of GW, so i dont think you\'d get away with using it without a license from GW.

Hope this helps, and good luck!

Thanks for the help, now Ive got to think of another way to deal with grenades.

 

[Trevor]

Just use a scatter coin, ie a disc with an arrow on it. Spin the disc for scatter. If you need the 1/6 hit chance as well just roll a d6 with the disc. Or if you want a 50/50 chance of hitting you could flip the coin. This is sufficiently different that GWs scatter dice copyright should not be infringed.

Strength, toughness are fine, but if at all worried just have a look in a dictionary for alternatives. You could use Muscles, or Power or something.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, why are you making a rules system? There are loads out there that could be used as is or modified, then you just do the background setting. Or is this going to be a commercial venture?

 

[coonass]

Originally posted by Trevor
Just use a scatter coin, ie a disc with an arrow on it. Spin the disc for scatter. If you need the 1/6 hit chance as well just roll a d6 with the disc. Or if you want a 50/50 chance of hitting you could flip the coin. This is sufficiently different that GWs scatter dice copyright should not be infringed.

That might work, I\'ll look at it

EDIT: Out of curiosity, why are you making a rules system? There are loads out there that could be used as is or modified, then you just do the background setting. Or is this going to be a commercial venture?

Eventually I\'m going to try and go commercial with this, right now, it looks like I\'m going to do the same thing as the Avatars of war guy and sculpt a few figures. then release a beta version of the rules on the internet for you guys to test out

 

[ZaPhOd]

If you want to go commercial eventually, I recommend changing your nickname to something less offensive to some lol

 

[EArkham]

Game mechanics can not be copyrighted, but game rules can be. No matter what GW might try and imply, \"rolling a d6 to determine if your strength is better than your target\'s toughness\" is perfectly fine for any game to use. \"Roll a d6 to determine if your strength 9 lascannon wounds their toughness 4 chaos space marine\" is not fine to use. Their specific \"scatter dice\" may be trademarked, but \"roll a dice to determine where a grenade scatters\" is not and a dozen other game systems use similar mechanics. Nobody is getting royalities whenever someone rolls dice.

The entire Warhammer & Warhammer 40K system as a whole is protected. If you copy sections of their mechanics entirely and try to sell the game as your own, then \"you\'re asking for trouble\" is putting it lightly. It\'s fine to use strength, toughness, initiative, etc, as stats in your game. If you put them in a stat block that looks and functions just like the one in 40K -- even if you\'ve renamed them to muscle, endurance, speed, etc -- you\'re in the wrong. Think of it like painting a picture. Nobody owns the colours red or blue, but they do own the image they painted with red and blue. Everyone is free to make their own pictures in red or blue as long as they don\'t copy someone else\'s image. Toughness, strength, and \"roll a dice\" are the reds and blues of game design, while \"Warhammer 40K\" and \"roll a scatter dice and consult the scatter table(tm)\" are some of the pictures.

If you want to design your own game, don\'t just copy someone else\'s, even under the guise of \"improving\" the rules. It\'s going to be obvious that the game is a copy and nobody will want to play that when they can play the original. Games Workshop doesn\'t allow other systems to dovetail theirs, but take a look at the Wizards of the Coast d20 system for one that does.

I recommend that you go out and play every single system you can get your hands on, learn how all the different gaming systems work, and get a good solid understanding of the advantages and disadvantages of each mechanic. Look at how the games handle the same situation differently (\"A attacks B with a ranged weapon\" or \"A makes a saving throw against B\'s attack\" etc) and analyze their choice of mechanics. Once you get that solid understanding of how game rules in general work, you won\'t need to copy anyone else\'s game -- you\'ll be overflowing with options and ideas on how to make one from scratch.

Hope that helps point you in the right starting direction.

Kep

PS - Sorry, that got a bit lengthy but I was a game designer for a while so it\'s a topic near and dear.

 

[coonass]

In response to EArkham reply, thanks for the advice, its always nice to hear from someone with experience in the field.

As far as rules go, the system will be closer to the \"Inquisitor\" game than simple Warhammer 40k. the reason for this is simply because I liked the concept of the inquisitor game system but wanted a \"real\" wargame instead of a narrative one.

Right now the \"secret sauce\" of the game to make it stand out is the \"mental state\" factor. This rule (which I\'m still working out the kinks of), dictates what the mental state of the soldier is (the states can range from calm to terrified, and can induce many things such as causing the character to retreat to causing the character to go into shell-shock). The mental state of the soldier also affects how well the soldier can accomplish tasks in the game world

one of the problems I\'m finding with the rule is that it slows down the game and ruins built up momentum.

 

[Trevor]

lol

I mentioned that in some thread about \'realism\' in wargaming, I was asking where the \"those bugs just killed my mate and now I\'m real pissed\", \"haven\'t eaten anything or slept in days and I\'m ready to go home\" and \"my girl just left me and I want to die\" type modifiers were. Never did get an answer...

 

[Dragonsreach]

Originally posted by coonass
In response to EArkham reply, thanks for the advice, its always nice to hear from someone with experience in the field.

As far as rules go, the system will be closer to the \"Inquisitor\" game than simple Warhammer 40k. the reason for this is simply because I liked the concept of the inquisitor game system but wanted a \"real\" wargame instead of a narrative one.

Right now the \"secret sauce\" of the game to make it stand out is the \"mental state\" factor. This rule (which I\'m still working out the kinks of), dictates what the mental state of the soldier is (the states can range from calm to terrified, and can induce many things such as causing the character to retreat to causing the character to go into shell-shock). The mental state of the soldier also affects how well the soldier can accomplish tasks in the game world

one of the problems I\'m finding with the rule is that it slows down the game and ruins built up momentum.:(

If that is the case then the rule is obviously Flawed either in it\'s application in game terms or in it\'s description.

Consider this: In normal circumstances mental states do not change very rapidly, with the exception of Fear, Terror or Anger. And having said that both Fear & Terror can last for a considerable time.
Should the Mental state of Fear come into play then it needs to have a timescale (ie 2 rounds of play) before being necessary to be re-tested.

The description of your game indicates to me that you are aiming this at Squad level \"Firefight interaction\" rather than a massed battlefield of whole armies. Keeping it to Squad level would in my opinion help to make the game dynamics quicker and more fluid. Therefore a rule about Mental States wouldn\'t affect game play as dramatically.

 

[Sigmork]

Originally posted by coonass
one of the problems I\'m finding with the rule is that it slows down the game and ruins built up momentum.

I reckon you need to find a gap in the market, i think you\'ve hit the nail on the head when thinking about time. Considering that teenagers are the ones carrying on the wargames hobby, there have been lots of surveys showing that (most) teenagers can concentrate for about an hour. If you managed to make a working game that lasts under an hour, made the rules simple but balanced and included lots of \'cool\' models you could sell it well.

Also for the first few editions you shouldn\'t copy games workshops \"GW only minis\" path, that way you could sell it to mini making companies like reaper or rackham to sell on their website, hopefully boosting both your sales.

Just my thought, not expecting anything of it:duh:lol

 

[Sigmork]

Oh and another thing, Ive been reading your last thread, your game looks very like 40k, you should think of an original idea, maybe make it a humorous game, but still make it rather realistic.

After searching for a while, Ive found a game I made last year to play during class, that I can email to you, if you give me your email address, or anyone who wants it.

It IS a copy of Warhammer Fantasy, I made it for personal use, not commercial. It is just like WHFB but with simplified stats, played with paper counters, made smaller, and simplified only needing arond 6 dice (6d6) and a tape measure. Some of the rules are unclear so feel free to ask about anything.

 

[Sigmork]

Also, I\'ve thought of an idea of your scatter dice problem, excuse the bad art, MS paint is the only program I can (barely) use.

Basically its 2 spinners on a tray, one has an arrow on, which is spun to find the direction, the other has distances and a (blue) pointer to show the distance traveled, you could then copyright this if going commercial, to stop others stealing it.

EDIT: god, 3 posts I sound as if I\'ve got nothing better to do than post pointless replies
(which is actually true, stupid english essay:flame::cussing::flame: )

 

[darkartminiatures]

Good luck with your venture Coonass.

 

[mattsterbenz]

Here\'s how I make a scatter dice from a regular D6:

A roll of a 1 or 6 is a \"hit\".

On a 2-5, the \"arrow\" points wherever the 1 is facing.

Simple, yet very effective! Same odds as the GW dice as well.


Hope this helps,
-Matt