Assault queries

[Gapow]

It states in the rulebook that a squad can only assault the unit it shot at, a couple of queries and an dumb argument occured over a couple of points;

1) My opponents assault squad wiped out my guardian squad in the shooting phase, could they choose to assault a different unit as the one they shot at was no longer on the board?

2) I wrecked (destroyed) his Land Raider in my shooting phase and his Terminators therefore had to disembark. I wanted to then assault the Terminators in my assault phase, but was told I couldn't as it wasn't the same unit as per above. I thought the dedicated transport and the troops inside would be classed as the same unit and I could therefore assault them. What's correct?

3) Can monstrous creatures climb/move up a level? In a previous game I wanted to assault his scouts which were stood on a gantry, I was within range but was told that the Avatar wasn't allowed on the structure as A he can't climb and B he would just melt through the structure. What's the crack with that? I thought they could move through any terrain unrestricted, and if he could melt the building wouldn't he just melt it away so could reach them lol

Any help is most appreciated...................only if its correct

 

[blackbolt]

yes to the first 2(as in you can) and it doesnt matter as long as you pass the diffucult movement roll u can assualt his guys

 

[Mourner]

1) the unit he shot at is gone when he wants to assault it, the rules clearly state he could only have assaulted that unit.

2) same as above, you shot the land raider, and that's gone when you would like to assault it.

3) If I'm correct, anything but a vehicle (tank, skimmer, fast, walker) can climb and thus assault models higher up in a structure, provided they meet all other requirements (range, shot at etc.)

 

[Gapow]

Hi guys thanks for the replies.

I've had chance to speak to the GW store this morning. They advised that both 1 & 2 are "No" as they must assault what they shot at and if it isn't there then they can't assault. I thought 2 was different as I thought the transport and troop were the same unit.

3 is a yes though, as it's a Monstrous creature it doesn't need to roll to move through cover either

 

[Gapow]

The GW store don't know their rules! Knew I'd read about assaulting units after you blow their transport up!

In the Transport Vehicle section it has details about what happens to the passengers when the vehicle is destroyed and it also has the following note;

Models in a single unit fire simultaneously, so a squad cannot take out a transport with its lascannon and then mow down the occupants with their bolters, HOWEVER if a transport is destroyed by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it may assault the now disembarked passengers (if allowed by normal rules etc).

 

[blackbolt]

ya i knew the ting about destroying vehicle and charging occupants.(stupid DE lol)

 

[IdofEntity]

3) Can monstrous creatures climb/move up a level? In a previous game I wanted to assault his scouts which were stood on a gantry, I was within range but was told that the Avatar wasn't allowed on the structure as A he can't climb and B he would just melt through the structure. What's the crack with that? I thought they could move through any terrain unrestricted, and if he could melt the building wouldn't he just melt it away so could reach them lol

Any help is most appreciated...................only if its correct

Seriously? They reasoned he would just melt through the structure, therefor he was prohibited from climbing and assaulting? It sounds as if your opponents are trying to take advantage of you. Bring the book with you whenever you play, and if it seems like a shady call take a moment and look it up. Don't let them exploit you.

 

[jamemurp]

Some serious rules fail here. Gapow is dead on- this stuff is covered directly in the rules. A unit must assault what it shoots- the exception is that if the unit destroys a transport, it may assault the occupants. As to moving between levels, the MC, see the movement and Difficult terrain sections. Basically, it is beasts that can't move between levels, not MCs.

As to the whole melting things, tell him to read you where in the rules he got that ;-)

 

[Gapow]

I think the main problem with the assault after destroying transport rule was that it is a tiny foot note in the rule book. I sent a screen shot of the page with the rule on it and people still missed it!

Another problem is that logic doesn't really come into play with some of the rules lol.

 

[IdofEntity]

Oh I can't argue that some rules seem a bit illogical. As long as everyone adheres by them though, it's fine.

But come on. The Avatar of Khaine can't climb it because he would melt it? Does that mean if you play in a desert setting he's constantly surrounded by pools of molten sand, and as he leaves they become glass and thus difficult terrain? I assume the gantry he wanted to climb was made from steel? If it was made from steel and the Avatar could melt it, he would put off enough heat to seriously harm any fleshy that tried to assault him.

It's just...ugh...those are the kind of players I want to smack. They take a bit of the background fluff and try and make rules from it to bend to their advantage. He used scouts, which means he's a marine player to boot. I'm guessing his tactics are rather straightforward and unimaginative, which is why he felt the need to make rules up.

 

[Gapow]

We were using the old 40k card bastion building, which meant it would be rockcrete or whatever bollocks they want to call it so I'm sure that could withstand the heat anyway (thats beside the point). I think the arguments come about becuase they couldn't harm it with melta weapons or flamer weapons coz the fluff says he's living molten flame or whatever, so if they can't harm him because of that rule, then he can't climb on stuff he'd melt.

The next query was whether he'd have to go to a ladder, but I said he's 10 foot tall and wouldn't be able to use the rungs plus he's taller than the building.

My friend is actually an IG player he was just using my marines whilst he builds up his army as we're both just getting back into it. We play on a Friday night which doesn't help with the rule interpretation as we're all (there's 4 in total)tired and argumentative. Plus as we're learning the rules and I've read the most of the rulebook it seems like I'm bending the rules to my favour. His troops had to use the ladder to climb up, then couldn't shoot him with flamers/meltas, but I could climb up without a ladder and then chop him up. His dreadnought can't climb but my wraithlord can etc

Think we've agreed that all monstrous creatures can move up a lvl without penalty. I had previously said it kinda made sense that maybe a carnifex couldn't climb due its bulk and little legs, but an Avatar is a humanoid in appearance and so is my wraithlord (to a certain extent) so why wouldn't they be able to climb. With regards to a carnifex though I guess it would make sense he could jump?

 

[Chrome]

Reading and quoting from the big rulebook page 83 'Moving within ruins':
"Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin."

So, this states that the Avatar (and definitely a dreadnought or a soulgrinder for that matter) can indeed walk on the upper levels of a building since it is among the unit types that are allowed to, but only if you can place the model on that level. Simple as that.

Moving inside ruins is done being constantly in difficult terrain and GW assumes all floor levels are 3" high in their rule book. To be able to move to a higher level the model/unit that attempts to do so must therefore roll 3+ on their difficult terrain roll and may then choose to either go up one level or move the 3" on the level they are currently. if the roll is higher they may also move the remainder of the sum rolled on the new level after deducting the 3" for climbing. Likewise, if you roll 6" on the difficult terrain roll you may move two levels in the building.

When it comes to the use of doors, ladders, ropes and whatever the rulebook clearly states that this is something highly optional that you(the players) should agree upon, there is nothing actually covering it in the book other than as examples of how to implement them.

 

[Gapow]

Oh I quoted that one as well, but was advised it wasn't a ruin lol. It might sound like my mate is a dick, he isn't but he's just really pedantic about rule definition. As this was a building and not a ruin and none of this is covered in the building section, I just let it lie as I couldn't be bothered arguing.

We normally just agree to roll a dice and go with the result (He's right or I'm right) for the rest of the game and then find out the proper answer later if we can't find a clear definition in the rule book, hence my numerous posts in here over the last week or so

I'll run with the rules for the ruins from now on and we'll agree to it before we start playing, must admit it seems silly that dreadnoughts can climb as they can barely waddle along as it is, but if it states all walkers can then there is no argument..........just a bit of head shaking and disbelief lol

 

[Chrome]

well, non-ruined buildings should be treated as enclosed, stationary transport vehicles according to the rule book. More immersive printed rules about buildings would mean playing Cities of Death.

But to keep it simple I'd suggest using the ruins rules and plainly remove the difficult terrain bit, that way there's a clear definition of how and what in case of an argument and it's a pretty straight forward way to play it.

I'll run with the rules for the ruins from now on and we'll agree to it before we start playing, must admit it seems silly that dreadnoughts can climb as they can barely waddle along as it is, but if it states all walkers can then there is no argument..........just a bit of head shaking and disbelief lol

That's why I added the soulgrinder to the list as well. Logically those guys would just march through the walls and demolish the stairs down so that the embarked troops couldn't get out and then continue to wreck the structural support for the building and laugh at the falling souls.

 

[Gapow]

Cheers, that sounds like a sensible solution. We'll use the ruins without the difficult terrain test. I've got the old Imperial Firebase and Imperial Bastion card board kits, and they're really cool pieces of terrain but don't half cause some confusion with the rules.

Oh another query with them is whether or not an assault squad would need a dangerous terrain test to land on them? They are mostly flat, but have areas with walls that provide cover. I guess if we're not classing them as difficult terrain then they would not have to pass the dangerous terrain test for landing?

So many rules.......................................

 

[Chrome]

To land on them, I'd say no, but if the intention would be to fly in and land on a level in them I think I'd like to give logic a call, after all, jetpacking straight onto/through a wall just might hurt a bit.

 

[Gapow]

The majority of the building is all on one lvl then they have towers on them. I think it's obvious they won't need to take a test for landing on the main part of the buildings, but would it be logical to have a dangerous terrain test if he wanted to land in a tower, all the models should physically fit but it'd be a tight squeeze. Having 5 guys all trying to land shoulder to shoulder could cause some casualties, here's the board we fight on and the buildings are all on there, not as intended as we've swapped them about a bit to fit the landing pad in, but you should get the jist of it;

 

[bensnewman]

On the subject of illogical rules HOW IN THE HELL CAN YOU ASSAULT A VALKYRIE. they don't even need to land to deploy troops. When was the last time you saw somebody punch a helecopter out of the sky
I mean maybe troops with jump packs or jet bikes or if they're really good at throwing grenades but Terminators with power fists???

 

[blackbolt]

arnt they putting flyer rules in the next codex for the "flyer" type skimmers now? ex voidraven, valkery, new GK flying tihngy, ect..

 

[me_in_japan]

nope. First time I used my Dark Eldar Razorwing, I finished its move over a building with a flat roof. My opponent then says "that's difficult terrain", which, given that the ground floor was ruined, was true. So I have to roll for dangerous terrain (it being a skimmer and all). Of course, I fail the roll, and it's immobilised. Then he assaults it with his genestealers.

Sooooooo

my supersonically fast jet fighter flew over a building, got, erm, mysteriously wedged in it (while of course remaining several hundred metres above it), survived the wedgie with no damage whatseover, and decided to hover over the building until the nasty alien monsters supah jumped the aforementioned several hundred metres up and pulled its engines off?

uhuh. right.

and incidentally, has anybody else noticed that teh new necron transport moves faster than a dark eldar one, has better armour, isnt open topped, and yet still has the can-move-at-cruising-speed-and-shoot-all-guns rule?

Dark eldar are the fast army. really.

As for Craftworlders? Jeebus. I'd be quicker getting out and walking...