Alternatives to washes?

[-Ice]

I've not been having much luck with washes lately, and the sad fact is that most "recipes" I find call for a wash or two applied. Online tutorials show washes applied in great globs of liquid splattered all over the mini, is this the right way to do it? In fact, the Army Painter site recommends dipping the mini in the wash! I've tried to be "conservative" with my wash application but all I get is either too faint shades or rings of shade where the wash pools up.

So, is there a trick on applying washes?

Or is there an alternative that I can do instead of washing down a mini?

Please help!

 

[Wyrmypops]

Washes aren't ideal for marines. It's the way they work. Running into the recesses, there's not many of them on marines and washes can pool on large flat areas, like power armour.
You can address that situation with brush control. As you apply the wash you pull the brush away from the uppermost flat areas towards the recesses, coaching the wash into where you want it to run.

Though I grew to use washes sparingly. Instead of applying a medium basecoat, washing for shading then highlighting up, preferring to paint on the dark tones first and just blending into the medium and highlight tones from there.

 

[No Such Agency]

A trick... beats me man. I wanna hear the anwers to that question. I still get grief from washes.

An alternative might be to base colour with your dark shade, and layer up from that? I wouldn't do it on all surfaces, but it's worked for me from time to time.

 

[HeavyBolter]

The Army Painter Dip is a very specific product. In essence what it is is a stain more than a wash. Its Polyurethane based and is very similar to Minwax wood staining products in the US. I've done this technique and it is very tricky to master. Dipping is messy so Ive always avoided it in lue of brushing the stain on. Brushing gives more control. It takes 14 hours to dry fully and is prone to pooling. The end result is a very glossy mini that is shaded well but will need to be dullcoted with a matte varnish to look anywhere decent. Here is a shot of my attempt at it.

see how glossy it is before i hit it with Dullcote

Have you tried the Games Workshop washes yet? I recommended Gryphon Sepia for reds. I see your adding Varnish to your wash, what varnish are you using? I think your wash recipe might be off. Washing with just Paint and water can be very tricky to get right as the wash wont settle in the right places. I've seen alot of people add a drop of Dish washing liquid to there washes to break the surface tension of the wash so it flows to the recesses where it should.

Here is what I use for all my washes. I basically make my own using this formula found on youtube. These washes are acrylic ink based instead of paint based. I can honestly say that I will always be making my own washes from now on thanks to this link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEkMnP6p08I
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/261541.page

Everything you need to make your own washes, except for that brand of ink he uses, from that video is sold here http://www.antenocitisworkshop.com/ in the UK, where you live =) . I do use the Daler Rowney inks but I'd be willing to see how the Vallejo inks work with this formula since that online store does carry them. You will find you get better results with an ink based wash vs paint based.
If you doubt this formula isnt just amazing then check out my Warhammer fantansy game set. I completed almost all of the dwarfs on that post with nothing more than a black primer coat, base colors, then followed up with the home made washes applied with a #1 brush to just the areas needed, then minor highlights afterwards. I believe I achieved an excellent balance of Time vs. Table Top Quality on them. For example , the Thunderers were 90% complete after only one painting session(about 4 hours).

http://tinywarriors.blogspot.com/2010/12/battle-for-skull-pass-and-awesome-paint.html


Cheers!

 

[gohkm]

It's already been suggested, and I do back it up - start off with your darkest shade and highlight up to the lightest. I find it really hard to do this, and I don't even know why - I just find it terribly difficult in general to highlight things. One area where I've had relatively good results, though, is in painting red - starting off with a Dark Flesh basecoat or even Scorched Brown, then highlighting all the way up to Blood Red using translucent layers.

I really don't recommend swabbing washes on figs in great blazing pools of liquid. There's no control at all, and a big part of fig painting is about control. So just do a control wash - instead of washing an area so much that it floods, just use a damp brush and gently paint the shadow directly into the crevice. Takes longer, but you get better control, and it really forces you to pay attention to the way light falls.

 

[freakinacage]

i always shade down rather than highlight up. use washes but don't let it pool or you will get the stain marks. that said, something to break the surface tension helps, ie a dishwashing liquid or future floorwax. if you want fast application that you can put on an leave, the dip is the best way to go. em has some good examples there. looks soooo much better with the matte finish. here's a fella's at43 stuff from frothers, he dipped (brush on, leave for an hour and then tidy up and odd pools, then did the flesh):

here's the thread with more of his stuff:
http://www.frothersunite.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=30289

 

[-Ice]

Yeah, I guess I better try basecoating with maybe Mechrite Red --- being a Foundation Color, it'll apply faster. Then use that as my shadow/basecoat and just paint on Blood Red onto the armor like a layer, leaving a line of Mechrite Red showing as shadow. I do this step anyway as "cleanup" to the washes so might as well do this, get better, more controlled results, and save me some frustration.

I have yet to try the recommendations in the link, HeavyBolter, but yes, I do use GW washes. I tried Badab Black and Baal Red washes, but the first was very dark and the second was barely noticeable that is why I settled for a DIY Dark Flesh - Varnish 1:1 wash mix

 

[HeavyBolter]

I decided to do some experimenting last night with the Dark Flesh formula you are using. I can definitely see why your having trouble with it. It didn't work well for me either and I'm very experienced with using washes. It settled badly on the flat areas and created almost a brown camouflage pattern. Here is a before and After . I then tried the Gryphon Sepia Wash and it was much better. Before and AFTER . You can see the difference. They were both liberally applied but not to the point of "drowning" the figure. Care was taken to concentrate the washes in the recesses and details and to spread it as thin as possible over the flat areas. I think this would be a perfect base to build up highlights from.

And this was just a quirky test I decided to try. Straight spray paint of Krylon Fusion Bright Red Spray paint. It's designed to bond to plastic so you don't have to prime.It's Phenominal for Reds and Yellows. In this case I did prime with a Rustoleum primer( fast drying grey). After it dried it was incredibly bright red and glossy. I waited the next day to wash it with GW GS wash and I loved the results. Definitely get some Gryphon Sepia, it's really nice. Hope my tests help you out a little

 

[-Ice]

This main picture, what did you use on it?

Can you explain the "trouble" you're having with the mix?

It settled badly on the flat areas and created almost a brown camouflage pattern.

Care to explain a bit more?

I may try the GS wash you're recommending.

 

[Torn blue sky]

Have to agree. There isn't much I don't use the sepia for now! I love the stuff! I know people like to have a moan about the new citadel washes, but they're invaluable to me now.

 

[HeavyBolter]

The wash with the ardcote didnt flow well at all. For instance on the shoulder pads, instead of it drying evenly like the sepia wash did, it created a kind of border around where the liquid pooled and the pigment settled. So it looked like a dark flesh mottling camouflage pattern instead of an even shading of the red.Very uneven and very ugly. It seems in this case the varnish doesnt act as a good enough flow agent to allow the wash to act properly. This was also evident in the pooling around the knees. Maybe its the gloss properties of the varnish. I'm not sure. I dont have that kind of problem with the Liquitex Matte Medium I use.
I described what I used on the pic model, but I'll go into more detail. =) :

Primer: Rustoleum Painters Touch 2x Grey Primer
Paint: Krylon Fusion Made for Plastic Spray Paint Bright Red
Wash: Games Workshop Gryphon Sepia.

I primed it, waited for the primer dry(about 5 minutes), gave it two very LIGHT! coats of Krylon Fusion Red.Its really easy to mess up and overload on spray paint. The trick is to spray left to right with the can at least 12inches from the mini and spray in bursts. I let it dry overnight, although it was ready to the touch after about 30 minutes. Once it was dry I just washed it with Gryphon Sepia. Not even a matte coat or anything. Its more of a Blood Raven red than Blood Angels but I'm sure Blood Red could be easily layered on to achieve the desired tone.

Here is my post on my personal blog with all the shots in sequence

 

[Torn blue sky]

I actually suspect you're thinking of washes when you should be thinking maybe of glazes now, Ice. Washes do the recess work, essentially. Glazes are the things that help bring a mini together. I realised that while thinking that the new citadel washes are actually far closer to glazes than an actual wash.

 

[Arma]

If you use the citadel wash range on space marines go for it, just reapply the basecoat colour after applying the wash. If you want to make your own washes you can adjust the properties of paint by adding mediums to it. I like glaze medium from Vallejo, also matte medium works.

A point though is that I rarely use them any more. Water works fine as it's much more about controlling the amount of brush on and coming off your brush.

 

[-Ice]

You rock HeavyBolter! I love the blog too! I'm too new at this that I don't know the exact properties of a decent wash so I wouldn't know how my "mix" was reacting. I will get a GS wash and try that. I see from my GW color chart that GS wash is brown-er than Baal Red so I think that may be a nice touch --- I read somewhere before that it is proper to use the same-color-wash as your basecoat so that was why I was washing with Baal Red.

Torn, if you say glazes as a "bring together" thing, then no. What I am doing with the wash is to darken the recesses, so a wash is exactly what I'm looking for. I would really appreciate more discussion on glazes though. The local GW guy wanted to teach me glazing to achieve a bright red but all he did was water down Blood Red with water to achieve an even coat in 2-3 passes so I cannot imagine what the difference between glazing is since what he did is essentially what I'm doing for my basecoat!

 

[Torn blue sky]

Glazes can be used in a number of ways. To lighten or darken whole areas or to help blend together colours more seamlessly. I'm sure there must be a tutorial/article about it on here somewhere, I wouldn't worry about it too much right now though, it's a bit of an intermediate technique that mostly is learned from practice.

 

[-Ice]

This is bullshit. F*ck it and all that! I picked up a bottle of Gryphonne Sepia today, basecoated my mini Blood Red with my 1:1 dilution... To be fair to all my previous works, I slobbered it all over the mini - kept the technique more or less the same but a bit less wash. I've spent most of my "session" cleaning the f*cker up.

I've tried to take pictures but the "stains" don't show well in pics but are very visible in reality.

What the f*ck am I doing wrong? I am so frustrated now, you all make it sound so easy. RIght now, if I were to paint one mini, I'd be guessing 80% of the paint time goes to wash cleanup. Not acceptable! Please don't tell me "this is how it is!"

 

[Wicksy]

This is bullshit. F*ck it and all that! I picked up a bottle of Gryphonne Sepia today, basecoated my mini Blood Red with my 1:1 dilution... To be fair to all my previous works, I slobbered it all over the mini - kept the technique more or less the same but a bit less wash. I've spent most of my "session" cleaning the f*cker up.

I've tried to take pictures but the "stains" don't show well in pics but are very visible in reality.

What the f*ck am I doing wrong? I am so frustrated now, you all make it sound so easy. RIght now, if I were to paint one mini, I'd be guessing 80% of the paint time goes to wash cleanup. Not acceptable! Please don't tell me "this is how it is!"

Dont use washes Apply your base coat, add some dark flesh to it and maybe a spot of black then apply the colour into the recesses. Touch up the base coat after wards and then work towards highlights etc.. Remember, painting isnt all about following slavishly what everyone else says/does, its about fiddling about and getting it right for you.

Marines look bad with washes IMO. However it can work if used carefully. A mate paints his space wolves by basing the armour with adeptus battle grey, then washing with badab black then reapplying the adeptus battlegrey. Then he works up the mid tone of codex grey followed by highlights up to fortress grey. I found early on that the whole base coat, wash, highlight doesnt often work. In some cases it screws up as you have just found.

 

[gohkm]

Hey, Ice, chill, man! Relax a moment. As has been mentioned several times already, Marines aren't great for washes. I would suggest you move on from washes - ignore them completely for the moment. Perhaps adopt Wicksy's technique. Since they're Blood Angels, I would suggest a few more steps in your painting process:

1. Undercoat or prime with Chaos Black. Make sure you get an even coat, and use a brush to black out any areas you missed. Make this a relatively thin coat.
2. Basecoat with a mix of Charred Brown and Dark Flesh.
3. Use a first highlight of Dark Flesh + Mecharite Red + Red Gore.
4. Use a second highlight of Mecharite Red + Red Gore.
5. Use a third highlight of pure Red Gore.
6. Use a fourth highlight of Red Gore + Blood Red.
7. Use a fifth highlight of pure Blood Red.
8. Use a diluted glaze (and I do mean glaze!) of Baal Red to tie all the previous layers together.

Keep each layer thin and translucent, so you're layering successive highlights. With each successive highlight, paint in a slightly smaller area than the previous step.

For tabletop quality, I'd probably quit at the pure Blood Red. If you want to bring the highlight up some more, there's additional steps you can take, but then you'd have to pay attention to keeping the red colours red and not turning orange or yellow. Well, unless a top highlight of orange or yellow is what you're shooting for.

Does this make any sense?

Edit:
If you insist on trying out washes, a technique you may have some success is with stain-and-wipes with inks. So, basecoat the Marine exactly the way you're doing now, and even continue slobbering Gryphonne Sepia all over it, but here's the trick: give the Gryphonne Sepia about 5 seconds or so to stain the Marine, then gently wipe it off with a bit of tissue. Your clean-up should be reduced in this way. It'll take a while to master, but it may give you good results - I'm using this technique even now; just washed up some Drune armour in exactly this manner.

 

[-Ice]

Ok, I take it back. Funny how things always look better in the morning.

I've tried two models, one with Gryphonne Sepia and one with Devlan Mud (suggested by the GW guy). I really like the effect of the GS wash though I am still upset about the number of coats it took to clean up. At this rate, if I do all my marines in this "basic" way, I won't be done until Valentine's day!

The one thing I like about the GS wash is that it makes it look like I've had a base of Mechrite Red without sacrificing the brightness of the Blood Red. IMHO, a Mechrite Red basecoat will not produce the same "brightness" as a Blood Red basecoat in the end, so a GS wash gives me that Mechrite Red "look" without having to do an actual Mechrite Red basecoat.

Thanks for the advice and support, gohkm and Wicksy. I would like to ignore the washes but at the moment a plain-basecoated mini looks too... incomplete for me.

As I do more and more marines, I am getting a nice "feel" for the final look I want. Still not going for the highlights/shadows thing for now (too time consuming) but I do think I may highlight a bit of my marine armor. So far, my plan is to basecoat Blood Red, 2 controlled washes of Gryphonne Sepia (for less cleanup), touchup with basecoat again (easier said than done!), paint in the details (aquila, soft armor, backpack, skulls), glue on the gun (guns are cleaned, primed, and painted separately), then base.

Now I got 12 space marines on TTQ paintjobs waiting for their base decorations. w00t!

 

[laurence]

Hi -Ice ">XD<" You may want to try "Danny's Magic Wash" Here's a link to the article: http://www.coolminiornot.com/articles/1116
I always found his wash recipe very useful back in my wash days. Alternatively, I'd recommend you get hold of the Allan Carrasco tutorial on DVD. Here's a link for that: http://www.miniaturementor.com/painting_tutorials.html
Very inspirational and useful DVD for all levels of mini painters. Cheers and happy painting!