Action! card timing

[Wounder]

There was a question of timing on the BGG forums: Does "Sticky Widget" negate a tank's Dash ability? Ignoring the question entirely (yes!), it got me to wonder about when Action! cards are supposed to be played. I had assumed, based on what I'd seen so far, you played them in your turn. That clearly can't be, since "Sticky Widget" would be utterly useless if you could only play it in your own Combat Phase. The card doesn't distinguish whose Combat Phase, just says "Combat Phase". Which is what "Masks! Masks!" says as well. Given that you clearly are intended to play "Sticky Widget" in your opponent's Combat Phase, doesn't that imply you could also drop "Masks! Masks!" on their turn? Or "This. Is. Marta!", which would be weird, but possibly more useful than playing it on your turn? How about "Back in the Fight!" to steal an opponent's unit? That last one seems ridiculous, but then again, the card doesn't state "your unit" just "unit".

Some of them don't work... "Shoot N' Scoot" as an example seems intended to only be played in it's owner's Combat Phase. None of the cards make any distinction, though. The only card that says anything, well, special is "Catch That Pigeon!" which says "Special" for it's timing and that's because it's basically a counter-Action! and can only be played after another Action! card.

This makes the Action! cards considerably stranger, in my opinion. On one hand, it makes it far more interesting... "You've deployed, started your Combat Phase and now I play 'Incoming!' on your bunker". On the other hand, that seems counter to the spirit of the game, which is a dangerously unstable ground to make a firm opinion on. It's really interesting to look at every Action! card and think about using it on your opponents turn, by the way.

In fact, it seems so strange that I'm assuming I've overlooked something simple. The rule book doesn't state whose turn you must play the card in. I couldn't GoogleFu any discussion of it. The updated rule book .pdf doesn't seem to have anything to say. Most of the cards seem clear in their intention, but the idea of dropping a gas attack on your opponent's turn has some definite appeal, frankly!

Anyhoo, has anyone seen anything official-ish or have an opinion?

 

[hithero]

Interesting, I just assumed that your cards are only played during your turn, the rules don't specifically say though.
Also, what about when to declare completed Missions? For Example, during my move phase I move a Rifleman to No Mans Land to give me 8 in the area ans score 2VP's, in the same turn I move 1 into enemy territory for Leroy Jenkins to score another 2. Do you get the points as soon as the Mission is accomplished or during the wrap up phase?

 

[WTFGamer]

I just replied on that BGG thread with the same questions on timing and the "Special" card. You've detailed it beautifully here. I'm on the same page and await the FAQ to set us right.

 

[willyc]

Never thought about this but it is a good question.

For my two pennies.

The active player declares an action or plays a action card, the other player has the opportunity to play an action card proper to that phase, the active player can then counter that if able with an action card of their own - eg in your example the Tank Dashes, is stopped by sticky widget the active player then plays carrier pigeon to egate the widget and carries on dashing.

So a player can play an action card in either his or his opponents phase but the active player gets the first opportunity.

Mission cards are more straightforward in that generally you play them to gain VP's and the rules state VP's are gained in the Wrap Up phase. So I would argue that in the wrap up phase you count first the objectives held and then play mission cards to claim any applicable VP's depending what happened in you turn. Of course this is problematic in the example as only one would apply, albeit "Leeroy Jenkins" had been in No Man's land as well.

This is the only real problematic combination but a confirmation from a FAQ on timing would be nice

 

[Bubo]

As far as mission cards, I find it best to play them as the instance occurs, leave them on the board until the wrap-up phase, so that nothing gets discounted or forgotten.

Action cards: i read this as being during ANY 'combat phase', if that's the phase indicated to use it. i never considered it applied to the player holding the card, ie. must be played during your own combat phase... but i can see now it's a grey area.

 

[Wounder]

This is the only real problematic combination but a confirmation from a FAQ on timing would be nice

I don't think it's the only problematic combination, though. Any Rapid Assault or Dash plus that card. There's another that I can't remember currently. Further expansions are going to up the possibility as well. And for a certainty, dropping a gas attack on your opponents turn isn't a card combination (of more than one), but will definitely cause a kerfluffle at some point. "This. Is. Marta!" has the potential to be really disruptive. I mean, once I had the thought, picked up my Action! deck and started reading through each one, there are a lot of cards you could play on your opponents turn that would be... vexing, let's say.

I'm torn, because some of the cards would add some more tension to the game if you could play them on your opponents turn, but in almost all of those cases, seem counter to the spirit of the game. For my interpretation of "spirit of the game", obviously.

It's also pretty important to note that the original combo is an edge case, but things like "Masks! Masks!" could come up every game.

 

[thatdave]

As far as mission cards, I find it best to play them as the instance occurs, leave them on the board until the wrap-up phase, so that nothing gets discounted or forgotten.

Action cards: i read this as being during ANY 'combat phase', if that's the phase indicated to use it. i never considered it applied to the player holding the card, ie. must be played during your own combat phase... but i can see now it's a grey area.

This is how I've been playing it as well.

 

[hithero]

Some of these cards are very powerful, allowing them to be played in your opponents turn will be game breaking and a hit in the nuts for having fun. Might be a little peed off having a straffing run or gas attacked played on me while everything is bunched up for deployment.

 

[Bubo]

playing action cards out of turn definitely breaks the 'turn based' combat mechanic... maybe that's not a bad thing? maybe it is. ted?

 

[Wounder]

Some of the cards you MUST play in your opponents turn. "Sticky Widget" as an example would be utterly pointless if you could only play it in your own turn.

 

[Crazyjuan]

This is over complicating things for a two player game. It's fairly evident that you wouldn't sticky widget your own unit, thus it's obvious that you play this on your opponents turn. By contrast, shoot and scoot cannot be played on an opponents turn as it only gives movement after attacking and (at least as the rules and units stand now) you get no attacks on the opposing players turn. Trying to use action cards like this is Marta when it's not your turn is a little bit too much "the rules assume I'm smart enough to not abuse this, I'll show them..." for me.

 

[Wounder]

This is over complicating things for a two player game. It's fairly evident that you wouldn't sticky widget your own unit, thus it's obvious that you play this on your opponents turn. By contrast, shoot and scoot cannot be played on an opponents turn as it only gives movement after attacking and (at least as the rules and units stand now) you get no attacks on the opposing players turn. Trying to use action cards like this is Marta when it's not your turn is a little bit too much "the rules assume I'm smart enough to not abuse this, I'll show them..." for me.

As you say "it's fairly evident". I agree, but that's different than saying it's certain. It could be that you play it on an opponent's cavalry or tank on your turn and they're supposed to track the effect. Or, and this is what I'm guessing we're missing on the card, it could say "Opponent's Turn".

It's not obvious that "This. Is. Marta!" could only be played on your turn. It's what I assume the intent is and how I play it, but the entire point of this thread is there's ambiguity in some of the Action! cards. That could mean it's the intent of the designer for it to not be obvious. Y'know, rather than assuming I'm out to "abuse" the card somehow. I think it could use clarification, in part so there's zero need for someone else to make the same assumption.

 

[Crazyjuan]

As you say "it's fairly evident". I agree, but that's different than saying it's certain. It could be that you play it on an opponent's cavalry or tank on your turn and they're supposed to track the effect. Or, and this is what I'm guessing we're missing on the card, it could say "Opponent's Turn".

It's not obvious that "This. Is. Marta!" could only be played on your turn. It's what I assume the intent is and how I play it, but the entire point of this thread is there's ambiguity in some of the Action! cards. That could mean it's the intent of the designer for it to not be obvious. Y'know, rather than assuming I'm out to "abuse" the card somehow. I think it could use clarification, in part so there's zero need for someone else to make the same assumption.

No, it is obvious. It states clearly that you are given one additional move. Additional is the key word in this context. You see, when it is your opponent's turn in which you get no movement you also get no additional movement. Just apply the card within the standing stated rules, which state nothing of moving units on opponent's turn, instead of applying the card in a way that the rules don't say you can't.

 

[Skritter]

ACTION! CARD DECK


Start of Deployment Phase

OVERTIME! (Offence)
CARRIER PIGION (Offence)
IMPROVED ASSEMBLY LINE (Offence)
TO THE FRONT (Offence)

Deployment Phase

REFIT(Offence)
DETAH FROM ABOVE (Offence)
TUNNEL RAT (Offence) (says ‘Start of Deployment Phase’ but I think it should be just ‘Deployment Phase’)


------------------------------------------------------------


Start of Movement Phase

FOREIGN ENTANGLEMENT (Offence)
THINGS THAT GO BOOM (Offence)
THIS. IS. MARTA! (Offence)

Movement Phase

DOUBLE TIME (Offence)
SPECIAL BLEND (Offence)


----------------------------------------------------


Start of Combat Phase

LETS SEE SOME HUSTLE (Offence)



Combat Phase - Offence

MASKI MASKI (Offence)
STRAFING RUN (Offence)
INCOMING! (Offence)
SHOOT N’ SCHOOT (Offence)
RELOAD (Offence)


Combat Phase - Defence

STICKY WIDGET (Defence)
BACK IN THE FIGHT (Defence)
REPOSITION! (Defence)
STIFF UPPER LIP (Defence)
DISCRETION IS THE BETTER PART OF VALOR (Defence, I think!)


--------------------------------------------------


Special - Defence

CATCH THAT PIGEON (Defence)


Comments Below ...

 

[Skritter]

:glasses-nerdy:


It is clear that most cards are for use by the Offensive Side (the active side taking their current turn), but it is clear half of the COMBAT PHASE cards and a SPECIAL card are for the Defensive Side (the side getting the brains bash in)

So Deployment and Movement phase cards a clearly for use only by the side currently taking turn,
while the Combat Phase cards are clearly split 50/50-ish.


So nearly ALL defensive counter cards are for the COMBAT PHASE ONLY

EXECPT - for currently one 'SPECIAL' labeled card, that can counter at any time.


:thinking:

 

[Wounder]

No, it is obvious. It states clearly that you are given one additional move. Additional is the key word in this context. You see, when it is your opponent's turn in which you get no movement you also get no additional movement. Just apply the card within the standing stated rules, which state nothing of moving units on opponent's turn, instead of applying the card in a way that the rules don't say you can't.

Where in the rule book does it say you can't move in your opponent's turn?

Overlooking that, there is ambiguity in when some of the Action! cards can be played. Some seem obvious, some significantly less so. My entire point is, I'd like it to be cleared up... by someone involved with the design of the game... for all the cards, not just the one you're obsessed with. I'm going to be done, because it's difficult to stay calm in the face of "the rules don't say you can't".

 

[Crazyjuan]

Where in the rule book does it say you can't move in your opponent's turn?

Overlooking that, there is ambiguity in when some of the Action! cards can be played. Some seem obvious, some significantly less so. My entire point is, I'd like it to be cleared up... by someone involved with the design of the game... for all the cards, not just the one you're obsessed with. I'm going to be done, because it's difficult to stay calm in the face of "the rules don't say you can't".

I don't understand where you're getting ambiguity from, because it's not the rules. You'd likely be less confused if you stopped asking what the rules say you can't do and simply read them. They clearly tell you exactly how it works. They clearly tell you what you can do. If they don't say you can do something, it means you can't do that. You're not smarter than the rules, you haven't uncovered some awesome tactic, you're just looking for loopholes that aren't there.

No need to get mad though, that's what house rules are for, you're free to play whatever harebrained goofy crap you want.

And you're done? Do you promise? After all I'm not even sure what to say about your first sentence being "show me where it says I can't move on opponent's turn." And your closing being, "it's hard to stay calm in the face of "the rules don't say you can't"". Which oddly seems to be your whole argument. Please, please be done. I can't make it simpler for you.

 

[Tauwolf]

Rules are written to lay out what you can do within a game. A rulebook is not an exhaustive list of everything a player may not do. While Crazyjuan's tone is a bit more confrontational than needed (he's crazy like that), the points he makes are spot on. You're free to play your games within your gaming group however you guys want to play. Sure, a few official clarifications would be nice at some point, but the ambiguity isn't nearly as rampant as you are making it out to be. "If it doesn't say you can do it, you can't" solves most of your issues.

 

[Skritter]

:thinking:
As I pointed out above, there are ONLY 6 cards that can be used by the currently defending side, they are all 'counter cards'
Cards that are used to counter another card or action/attack of the attacking side.

The only thing I see could be done, is that some small mention or indicator on these cards that they are for the side currently defending (ie. not taking their turn)

All the other cards are clear that they are to be used in ones own turn.

--------------------------------------------
Combat Phase - Defence

STICKY WIDGET (Defence)
BACK IN THE FIGHT (Defence)
REPOSITION! (Defence)
STIFF UPPER LIP (Defence)
DISCRETION IS THE BETTER PART OF VALOR (Defence, I think!)

Special - Defence

CATCH THAT PIGEON (Defence)
--------------------------------------------

 

[Ted Terranova]

Hey guys. We've been watching the discussions and are planning to release the FAQ this week. Hopefully it'll clear up any questions people have about stuff.

With the ACTION cards we pretty much intended each card to be played either during your turn or one of your opponent's turns but not either or. So cards like sticky widget were meant to be thrown down to stop your opponent during his phase. And masks masks was meant to be thrown down during your attack phase when you're attacking. Marta was intended to be used during your turn since that's the only time you move units. Incoming and Masks would be pretty devastating to pull out right as your opponent starts his combat phase and has his units bunched up. We just always played attack cards during our own attack phase.

Thanks again guys for bringing this stuff up. It's really helpful. It's also helpful to see the discussion and opinions that everyone has. And thanks for the patience. I know it can be frustrating to wait but we don't want to put out anything without really thinking it through.